Lately, The Atlantic is pushing hard on a particular narrative of American Christianity. It’s the same narrative we see in countless other places. It spins a story of Real True Christianity being subverted somehow—but poised to return in glorious triumph if only Real True Christians start living out their faith in the correct ways. One of their recent stories spins that narrative. Alas and alack, its author misses some extremely important truths—about both American Christianity itself and American culture.

At least it’s a somewhat-different bit of advice than what Christians normally get about how to revive their increasingly-irrelevant religion’s membership numbers and credibility levels.

First, let’s look at the writer of today’s OP about reviving Christianity

Today’s original post (OP) comes to us from Jake Meador. He’s a Christian, but not just any Christian. He’s the editor-in-chief of an extremist, right-wing, hardline, culture-warring, Calvinist evangelical site called Mere Orthodoxy. This site’s contributors are on a mission to make their flavor of Christianity the winner in America—and to ensure that flavor’s temporal dominance over Americans’ lives as well.

This is a particularly inbred flavor of Christianity, too. In fact, many of the names from Mere Orthodoxy also pop up in the documentary American Gospel, the site The Gospel Coalition (TGC), and TGC’s podcast Gospelbound, all of which spring from the same stances and beliefs. Once you learn these folks’ names, you’ll quickly see them blending together seamlessly from one project and site to the next. They exist in a completely self-reinforcing bubble, too, which is how they ended up featuring the advice of an odiously-toxic misogynist just a couple of months ago.

In today’s case, Jake Meador is not just the editor-in-chief of Mere Orthodoxy. He’s also a regular contributor to Gospel Coalition. This is no sweet, mainline Christian aghast at what Bad Christians™ are doing to his religion. Rather, he’s part of the group that Christian would be talking about.

In the real world, legitimate writers happily disclose any personal and professional connections that could be viewed by readers as potential indications of bias or conflicts of interest. But the rules work very differently in Christianity. Therefore, Meador’s byline shows only his most recent published book and his title at Mere Orthodoxy.

The Great Dechurching will not solve anything going on in Christianity’s decline

Speaking of which, Meador is super-impressed with a recent book put out by some of his peers and colleagues over at TGC: The Great Dechurching. In a lot of ways, it’s the institutional equivalent of their previous book, Before You Lose Your Faith, which aimed squarely at individuals undergoing or considering deconstruction. This time around, its authors offer observations and advice aimed at church leaders desperate to increase the size and fervor of their flocks.

TGC has been busy promoting it, too. They’ve got a different podcast, As in Heaven, talking about it. That podcast has apparently devoted its third season to exploring the book’s main ideas. If I didn’t know evangelicals as well as I do, I’d only suspect this Atlantic post of being part of that publicity drive.

I was very unimpressed with Before You Lose Your Faith. This incredibly-flawed book failed to fulfill every one of its stated goals. Accordingly, I don’t have high expectations for this one.

In his Atlantic essay, Meador zeroed in on one of Dechurching’s main ideas:

The book raises an intriguing possibility: What if the problem isn’t that churches are asking too much of their members, but that they aren’t asking nearly enough?

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

You can just about hear these evangelicals desperately hoping Christians will cry out: Great Scott! It’s so obvious! We’ve gotten it all backward!

How this opposite-day reasoning works for Christianity

Christians, especially ones very impressed with their level of scholarship in their religion, love reversals. So does the New Testament, for that matter:

“Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5)

“So the last will be first, and the first will be last.” (Matthew 20:16)

“Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'” (Matthew 21:5)

[D]o you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? (1 Corinthians 6:2)

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you. (James 4:10)

In certain segments of Christianity, particularly the one inhabited by OP’s writer, reversals become a potent sign from the Almighty. The idea here is that Jesus deliberately sets his people up for failure, so when they succeed it’ll look extra-impressive to onlookers. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard a Christian talk about how absolutely unsuited they are for a particular divine calling, which must mean it’s really divine in nature. Or a wildly-unsuited Christian couple insist on marrying, since Jesus himself must have commanded such a pair to unite. (<— I’ve literally made this exact grievous error myself.)

So in Meador’s OP, churches aren’t losing people because they’re asking too much from the flocks. In reality, they’re asking too little, which is causing those flocks to value their membership too lightly.

Christianity is apparently suffering from the 21st century in general

Of course, Meador grants—as does Dechurching—that sex and abuse scandals “have driven people away.” However, Dechurching—and therefore Meador—thinks that Christianity came by its tanking affiliation rate for a very different reason:

The book suggests that the defining problem driving out most people who leave is … just how American life works in the 21st century. Contemporary America simply isn’t set up to promote mutuality, care, or common life. Rather, it is designed to maximize individual accomplishment as defined by professional and financial success. Such a system leaves precious little time or energy for forms of community that don’t contribute to one’s own professional life or, as one ages, the professional prospects of one’s children. Workism reigns in America, and because of it, community in America, religious community included, is a math problem that doesn’t add up.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

And that’s correct, but not for the reason Meador and Dechurching think it is. He then offers a scenario Dechurching uses “to describe a typical evangelical dechurcher”:

[A] 30-something woman who grew up in a suburban megachurch, was heavily invested in a campus ministry while in college, then after graduating moved into a full-time job and began attending a young-adults group in a local church. In her 20s, she meets a guy who is less religiously engaged, they get married, and, at some point early in their marriage, after their first or second child is born, they stop going to church. [. . .]

Soon it actually sounds like it’d be harder to attend than to skip, even if some part of you still wants to go. The underlying challenge for many is that their lives are stretched like a rubber band about to snap—and church attendance ends up feeling like an item on a checklist that’s already too long.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

And that is all also plausibly true, just not for the reason Meador and Dechurching imagine.

The Big Problem Here, according to Meador and Dechurching

You’ll be thrilled to know that Meador offers a solution to these scenarios from Dechurching:

In theory, the Christian Church could be an antidote to all that. What is more needed in our time than a community marked by sincere love, sharing what they have from each according to their ability and to each according to their need, eating together regularly, generously serving neighbors, and living lives of quiet virtue and prayer? A healthy church can be a safety net in the harsh American economy by offering its members material assistance in times of need: meals after a baby is born, money for rent after a layoff. [. . .]

But a vibrant, life-giving church requires more, not less, time and energy from its members. It asks people to prioritize one another over our career, to prioritize prayer and time reading scripture over accomplishment.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

Unfortunately, Meador tells us, church-attending Christians don’t have any clue how to start acting that way. And that’s true, too, just not for the reason he imagines. He and Dechurched imagine that Christians just are not Jesusing hard enough:

The tragedy of American churches is that they have been so caught up in this same world that we now find they have nothing to offer these suffering people that can’t be more easily found somewhere else. American churches have too often been content to function as a kind of vaguely spiritual NGO, an organization of detached individuals who meet together for religious services that inspire them, provide practical life advice, or offer positive emotional experiences. Too often it has not been a community that through its preaching and living bears witness to another way to live. [. . .]

The difficulty is that many of the wounds and aches provoked by our current order aren’t of a sort that can be managed or life-hacked away. They are resolved only by changing one’s life, by becoming a radically different sort of person belonging to a radically different sort of community.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

Then, Meador name-checks Bruderhof. This is a very Calvinist-sounding hardline communal sect based in Germany. Some years back, an equally hardline evangelical brought them up, so I looked into them. They alarmed me enough that I immediately archived that link.

Meador is super-impressed with what could very easily become an authoritarian nightmare made flesh—if it isn’t already. He’s not impressed enough to join them, of course. Just impressed enough to mention them as a perfect example of the kind of Christian church community he means:

This [Bruderhof] is, admittedly, an extreme example. But this community was thriving not because it found ways to scale down what it asked of its members but because it found a way to scale up what they provided to one another. Their way of living frees them from the treadmill of workism.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

However, Meador graciously allows evangelicals to live separately on their own, as long as they provide the kind of communal experience that Bruderhof does.

And what this kind of cosmic shift would totally mean for Christianity

If church communities in America began acting the way Meador and Dechurched suggest, the results would be absolutely stunning, he promises:

We could be a witness to another way of life outside conventionally American measures of success. Churches could model better, truer sorts of communities, ones in which the hungry are fed, the weak are lifted up, and the proud are cast down.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

Sure, Meador explains, such grandly-Jesusing churches wouldn’t acquire the wealth and power that so many modern churches want. But they’d be a lot closer to what he and Dechurched think Jesus wants his churches to look like.

He doesn’t need to state explicitly that this shift would also completely reverse Christianity’s decades-long decline in membership and credibility. It goes without saying.

I’m guessing he’d still want evangelicals to maintain their science denialism on several fronts, treat LGBT people like subhumans, trample human rights (particularly for women and LGBT folks), sneak indoctrination and religious propaganda into public schools, and enshrine their religious privilege into law before it’s too late to do it ever again. All of that has caused Gen Z to abandon Christianity in droves. Older generations often cite those causes as well, along with the scandals and abuses that Dechurched graciously concedes as valid reasons for disaffiliation.

Evangelicals will still be doing all of that, I suppose, while they’re also forming communes in churches.

The missing missing reason in this advice

But let’s backtrack a bit in the OP. Here is how Meador describes “workism” in America:

Contemporary America simply isn’t set up to promote mutuality, care, or common life. Rather, it is designed to maximize individual accomplishment as defined by professional and financial success. [. . .] Workism reigns in America, and because of it, community in America, religious community included, is a math problem that doesn’t add up.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

Now, let’s ask the missing question—the one that neither Meador nor Dechurched has asked:

In all this denunciation of “workism” and rejection of communal ideals, what role has American evangelicalism played in that social evolution?

I know Meador knows about this question, because I’ve seen him asking about it in the past. In 2016, he wrote a good essay about the “crack-up” of evangelicals’ beloved complementarianism:

What is needed from complementarians, then, is not simply a grab bag of biblical texts, but a fairly radical critique of the entire post-war capitalist economy in America and a deep understanding of more family-friendly alternative economic models that once again make the home a place of good and productive work. Put another way, we cannot simply talk about marriage and the sexes and gender roles; we must talk about the place where those things are acted out. That, in turn, means we must recognize the ways that industrialism has destroyed the habitat in which families thrive and the ways in which evangelicals have been complicit in this desecration. This sort of critique, unfortunately, is absent from evangelical complementarian literature.

The Evangelical Gender Crack-Up,” Mere Orthodoxy, June 14th, 2016 (archive)

It’s not absent at all, of course. Evangelicals bring it up all the time as a strawman so they can trample it with Bible verses and hand-waving idealism. As well, even back then you can see Meador’s insular worldview biting him in the butt:

So far as it goes, we can probably say that complementarianism served its intended purpose. Women’s ordination is a dead issue in much of American evangelicalism, which is highly unusual within the global context of evangelical Christianity. (UPDATE: If you’re Anglican or non-denominational don’t yell at me in the comments. Ted Olson, Betsy Howard, and Matt Miller have already corrected me on this. Duly noted. In these contexts “complementarian” is still useful, I gather. I was thinking primarily of the PCA and SBC when saying this as well as larger non-denominational networks like Acts 29.)

The Evangelical Gender Crack-Up,” Mere Orthodoxy, June 14th, 2016 (archive)

Of course he was thinking primarily of those evangelical groups. They generally hold the exact same opinions and stances he does!

At any rate, Meador offered good questions—albeit no real suggestions—in his 2016 essay. He apparently had one idea to suggest in 2023, though.

The obvious solution to The Big Problem Here

By wildest coincidence, the suggestion Meador offers is the same exact one that Russell Moore offered in the exact same publication just a week ago. And that someone else suggested there in 2018. And that someone else did in 2021, too. The Atlantic has really gotten hooked on a feeling narrative about how Christianity went adrift—and how it can regain its previous course again.

Unfortunately, asking how Christians might have contributed to a situation wrecks that narrative. Even worse for Christians, the answer to that question reveals that Christians today are a lot like Christians in past ages, even in gauzily-imagined past golden ages.

Even in the New Testament’s cautionary tale of Ananias and Sapphira, we see Bruderhof’s communal ideal failing to materialize in the real world. In James 4, we get potent warnings of divine retribution for the hypocrisy that book’s writer perceived in the earliest Christians: Infighting, slander, adultery, boasting, pride, and possibly even murder! And in 2 Timothy 2:14-26, we get tantalizing hints of gossip, arguments, and doctrinal infighting. Even Paul apparently fought with Peter over various doctrines, and Peter likewise apparently hit the limits of his patience with the newest Apostle.

The truth becomes glaringly apparent once we ask that question: Just as Christians have never been particularly good at following their own rules, at no point in history have Christians actually managed to live within a communal ideal in anything but the smallest, most temporary scale without the situation erupting into hypocrisy, rigid regimentation, and power-grabs galore.

A real crisis driving Americans to prioritize

Not to be Captain Obvious here, but America’s in the middle of a crisis regarding financial security. As the upper classes have enjoyed greater proportional wealth in recent decades, the lower classes have struggled to make less money go further and further every year. Amid rumors of a looming recession, Forbes declared last year that the middle class is “at the end of an era” of relative plenty.

Even with minimum wage rising in many parts of the country, someone earning that little can’t afford a one-bedroom apartment in 93% of the counties within the United States, according to one recent report.

I suspect this new reality is part of what drove Meador to write that 2016 post: The evangelical complementarian ideal of one wage-earning husband supporting a wife and a passel of kids has been completely out of reach for most Americans for decades now.

And we can lay a lot of that trouble at the feet of evangelicals themselves.

Evangelicals have contributed mightily to ‘workism’ in America

Thanks to evangelicals’ decades-old marriage to Republican politics and policies, their bought-and-paid-for congresscritters have done their best to destroy workers’ protections and unions. Along with their general destruction of public education, Republican politicians even seek to bring back child labor to make absolutely certain that no children can get enough of an education to avoid their parents’ struggle bus.

It’s a dizzying all-out assault on the working and middle classes alike. But evangelicals don’t understand its source. For years now, religious leaders have taught their flocks that the assault comes not from within their own house, so to speak, but from people they don’t like. That’s one of the reasons that QAnon’s conspiracy theories could infect evangelicals’ minds so quickly and so easily. They are naturally predisposed to blame their outgroups and culture-war enemies for everything wrong in the world. Republicans were only too happy to push hard on that tendency.

A riff I liked on the famous cartoon by Denis Lushch from Victoria, Australia (according to this Reddit thread)

Even Americans’ status as a post-truth society can be laid right at the feet of modern evangelicals.

Sidebar: WTAF with the overt Marxism?

As for Meador’s interesting use of the phrases “sharing what they have from each according to their ability and to each according to their need,” that is a Marxist idea. Literally, it comes to us straight from Karl Marx. It inspired Communism and socialism alike.

Evangelicals initially entered the culture war to fight Communism. The hardline ones have softened considerably on Communism as a huge affront to their Real True Christian ideals. They idolize Vladimir Putin as much as Donald Trump, and for similar reasons no doubt. But they still get very tetchy about anything that smacks of socialism. And they still use “marxist” as a snarl word to describe any culture-war idea they hate.

It’s beyond bizarre to see one of these guys drawing upon a Marx quote to sell his communal ideal to his fellow hardline evangelicals.

Christianity is just on the wrong end of the supply and demand equation, and ‘workism’ has nothing to do with it

As a result of all of these forces squeezing them on all sides, Americans have had to make big changes in how we spend our time and resources. For years now, I’ve seen close friends and family working out their budgets to the $5 mark. As each year gets harder, they drop one more nonessential service or pleasure they once enjoyed. And still they must budget to the $5, or else go into (more) consumer debt that will never get fully paid off.

In particular, Americans have had to seriously prioritize our expenditures. We no longer have wiggle room. There’s no longer any money or time to burn. If something isn’t essential to our lives, then we can’t waste time or money on it anymore.

And Jake Meador does sorta understand this. In sneering at “workism,” he declares that under this ickie worldly paradigm, church involvement “is a math problem that doesn’t add up.” His OP actually suggests that church flocks can Jesus their way right out of “workism” —and into such a grand and meaningful community that its sheer helpfulness and supportiveness draws back those who’ve left over the years.

I, in turn, gently suggest that there’s absolutely no way for church communities to do that—even if they wanted to do it, which evangelicals have repeatedly and constantly demonstrated they do not.

Why the Bruderhof ideal doesn’t work in evangelicalism as a whole, much less Christianity as a whole

A long time ago, I ran across a missionary’s excellent essay about “Rice Christians,” a common concept in missionary circles. “Rice Christians” are people who join Christianity just to get material benefits from their recruiters. They’re only there for the “rice” the missionaries give out to converts. Once the “rice” stops flowing, they leave.

So missionaries have to be careful about promising real help to their converts. If they promise too much help, then people will convert just to get it. But if they don’t help converts at all, then they will win far fewer converts.

This phenomenon happens across Christianity as a whole, too. Plenty of people join particular churches for perks they think they can gain from membership. These perks can range from money to making new friends to rubbing shoulders with famous or powerful members.

And they can go far past a particular church community, too. Several times, I heard a rumor while living in Idaho that it was advantageous to doodle a little beehive next to one’s signature on all paperwork done in that state. This beehive, indicating affiliation with Mormonism, was supposed to tip the scales in the doodler’s favor regarding employment, financial aid, legal disputes, disability requests, and much more.

The Rice Christian fly in Christianity’s Vaseline

However, the only real-world aid that Meador describes in the OP is distinctly temporary in nature, and very situational:

A healthy church can be a safety net in the harsh American economy by offering its members material assistance in times of need: meals after a baby is born, money for rent after a layoff.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

He offers no service-related help, for that matter. Everything he describes is entirely inadequate to the needs that many Americans have, and entirely too short-term a solution. He thinks this limited, short-term aid will be vastly outweighed by warm fuzzies the members of his idealized community will feel:

Perhaps more important, it [this limited, short-term aid] reminds people that their identity is not in their job or how much money they make; they are children of God, loved and protected and infinitely valuable.

The Misunderstood Reason Millions of Americans Stopped Going to Church,” The Atlantic, July 29, 2023 (archive)

Sure. And if that were true, churches would not be in decline, because they tell people that all the time as it is. All Meador allows to be added is a small amount of short-term aid to go along with those warm fuzzies.

Strict transactional rules might not feel very Jesusy, but they’re necessary in mutual-aid societies…

How long do you suppose a church like the one Meador and Dechurched idealize will last before desperate people discover it? Not long, I wouldn’t reckon. How long will that community be happy to subsidize a middle-class family whose financial security has been wiped out? Not long either, I’d guess. It’ll take more than a single rent payment to make many Americans solvent after someone loses their job, and more than a few meals dropped off at a home whose family faces a new mouth to feed in order for it to achieve financial equilibrium again.

Any mutual-aid group needs to put very strict rules in place to ensure members’ own financial security. Otherwise, with one-bedroom apartments running over $1,000 a month in some big cities, those churches will be sucked clean in very short order.

That’s one reason that communes work, to the extent that they do. They control their own land and usually provide jobs within their own community. That way, the group’s leaders can track their members’ contributions to the community—so members’ requests don’t ever outweigh their overall contributions. Modern parents’ babysitting circles work much the same way. So does social capital, on a more informal and personal scale.

I’m simply not sure churches are set up to handle that kind of accounting. I’ve sure never heard of one that did it. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, of course. I’ve just never heard of any churches doing it.

… and evangelicals won’t like being on the receiving end of it anyway

Normally, when right-wing Christians in particular dabble in this kind of accounting, it’s punitive.

For instance, Crisis Pregnancy Centers use religious busy-work, like this example from one location’s volunteer manual, to award piddling bits of help to their desperate female victims. As well, all too many religious charities force aid requesters to sit through sermons in order to earn a single meal or a place to sleep that night, like this example from a Christian forum. Note, please, that not one commenter there objects to this situation at all or insists that the homeless be fed first, then listen to the sermon only if they wish. They know better!

If someone tried to do that with evangelicals, I think we’d hear about the results on the evening news that night. They’d know exactly what it means and why it’s happening. As with abortion, the only moral request for help is their request for help. Most of them joined in the first place to get stuff from others (even if some of that stuff is intangible: safety from Hell, attention, conferred power, ready-made friendships), not to give their own stuff away to others.

Otherwise, when Christian church communities reject requests for help, it inevitably results in very sore feelings, as one Catholic discovered. Rejection is beyond inevitable; there’s just so much more help needed than any Christian communities can possibly fulfill. There’s a reason why our government doesn’t allow Christians to handle the social safety net, and it isn’t just that they always end up wielding it like a bludgeon.

If Christianity’s leaders begin asking even more of church congregations, the results are sure to be funny

Jake Meador thinks, as do his pals at TGC and other hardline Calvinist groups, that The Big Problem Here is church leaders asking too little of their congregations. Asking them to be more supportive toward each other—through increased donations of time and resources—will, these evangelicals are sure, bring churches closer to their idealized vision of a united, loving, mutually-supportive community.

Meador can cloak this truth in as many Jesusy descriptions of such churches containing people secure in their identity as “children of God, loved and protected and infinitely valuable.” The real story here lurks within the tangible time-and-resource-based support he wants churches to offer.

However, I don’t think many church leaders will make the grand mistake of taking that advice. I strongly suspect that most sincere evangelical pastors go through a phase of thinking like that. So they will already understand what the results will be as needy or attention-seeking new recruits join their congregations looking to reap communal benefits.

But giving this kind of advice is a win/win for its creators. If nobody listens, they can grouse about being ignored prophets. If someone listens and the situation turns out poorly, they can accuse that hapless sucker for inaccurately enacting the advice, or maybe blame demons for attacking them. And the advice itself sounds so incredibly Jesusy that lots of Christians will assume it simply must succeed, even if they can’t find any churches that actually do it.

As for church leaders themselves, they already know the dire truth facing their religion:

If they don’t have a way to force people to join up and stick around, it increasingly won’t happen.

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Captain Cassidy

Captain Cassidy is a Gen-X ex-Christian and writer. She writes about how people engage with science, religion, art, and each other. She lives in Idaho with her husband, Mr. Captain, and their squawky orange tabby cat, Princess Bother Pretty Toes. And at any given time, she is running out of bookcase space.

49 Comments

Chris Peterson · 08/03/2023 at 10:05 AM

There is a path for bringing back Christianity as a force. It is the Republican path. The path towards social collapse, poverty and economic inequity, pathological guilt, and general misery. The foundations of Christianity.

    Straw · 08/03/2023 at 2:00 PM

    I really hope that won’t work. It will not make peoples life better in any way, not really.

      Chris Peterson · 08/03/2023 at 2:55 PM

      Oh it will work. I just hope it isn’t realized!

    Captain Cassidy · 08/04/2023 at 7:57 PM

    Scary and all too plausible.

beads · 08/03/2023 at 10:55 AM

The words of Marx stood out in bold to me as I read that quote, as well. But in some ways I’m not even surprised. The younger factions of Christian Nationalists are driving a significant increase in sales of Mein Kampf. And I believe it’s because there are very, very few people still living with first person memories of the WWII era. If you stopped multiple members of gens Y, Z, Millennials and asked them a question about the Korean War, you’d put a stunningly smaller correct answers in your pocket than incorrect, and that doesn’t include the responses of “There was a Korean War”. I’m a Cold War/Desert Storm era veteran, and got accused of being a scammer by an Operation Enduring Freedom vet who did not even know that we’d already conducted a war in Iraq BEFORE 9/11.

When all the WWII vets/citizens are gone, what stops an authoritarian group from teaching how Hitler was just misunderstood.

Communism as an idea seems quite nice, but I’d guess very few churchgoers today even know who Marx was.

    Chris Peterson · 08/03/2023 at 11:33 AM

    Or what Marxism actually is. Not really a political or economic system at all, but a sociopolitical theory that defines a certain trajectory societies follow when economic inequities become too large. A theory that seems rather well borne out by actual examples!

    ericc · 08/03/2023 at 12:15 PM

    I’m sure hard right leaders such as Meador believe in Marxist ‘each according to his abilities to each according to his needs’ the exact same way Stalin did. I.e. you all contribute according to your abilities, and I decide what everyone needs.

    Wandering Spider · 08/10/2023 at 2:21 PM

    Actual history textbooks. Testimonies from both the survivors and the people who put fascists on trial.

    Unsurprisingly, that’s why the likes of DeSantis are trying to ban all of that.

smrnda · 08/03/2023 at 11:15 AM

Describing how the woman quit church after she had a kid, he suggests that it was just 1 more item on a to do list that was getting too long. Another possibility is that she had doubts before, and they just became a bigger deal when the issue was bringing in her own kid for indoctrination. Or her spouse was okay with church until it came to indoctrinating the kids. But then it isn’t that they were too busy, it’s that the product he is selling was bad.

Also, ‘meals after a baby is born’ is nice, but it’s kind of not a huge amount of help given the cost of having a child.

I also wonder, are people with small kids no longer just assuming churches are safe places to use for cheap or free child care as well? I’m pretty sure that women were attending church for that for much of time.

    Houndentenor · 08/04/2023 at 2:30 PM

    I wonder if that has been explored in any surveys. One of appeals of church to families are the free or low cost programs for kids. But now that people are more aware of how many children are abused in all kinds of churches (and religiously affiliated organizations), that seems less appealing. Is that a factor in people leaving churches?

BensNewLogIn · 08/03/2023 at 11:36 AM

Still reading, but this caught my eye: ‘Or a wildly-unsuited Christian couple insist on marrying, since Jesus himself must have commanded such a pair to unite.” Maybe 15 years ago, a couple came to see me about doing their wedding. They were from a hyper fundamentalist church, the pastor of which was well known to be very lightly antigay, and especially anti-gay marriage. These two had met just a month before, and I had the distinct impression that they had been pretty much commanded to get married by their pastor. I could smell a problem from a mile away, and I was very worried that they might want to hire me on the spot, seeing as they liked my work so much. Then I would have to figure out a way out of it. Fortunately, they didn’t make a decision that evening, and when they called me the next day I told them that I was very sorry, but a previous client had booked me after all And actually dropped off the check that morning.

    Captain Cassidy · 08/04/2023 at 7:59 PM

    Bullet dodged. If they were just that dedicated to wrecking their lives, at least you wouldn’t have any had in facilitating it.

BensNewLogIn · 08/03/2023 at 11:48 AM

i’d like to comment, but I can barely get this thing to work. If possible, this commenting system is even worse than viafoura.

    Straw · 08/03/2023 at 2:14 PM

    I don’t know yet, if I agree. What I would like to know is how to get a profile picture or drawing or something similar. I could not find that via settings.

      Chris Peterson · 08/03/2023 at 2:56 PM

      Do you have a Gravatar account? I presume that’s where my avatar is coming from.

        Straw · 08/03/2023 at 3:26 PM

        I don’t think I’ve ever heard about Gravatar, so no account there.

    Captain Cassidy · 08/04/2023 at 8:00 PM

    They’re still working on stuff, I think. Hopefully it’ll be easier. I agree with Chris – I think the pictures on some people’s accounts are coming in from Gravatar. Sometimes I see my profile pic from there pop up in a site’s comment section.

      WCB · 08/05/2023 at 9:50 AM

      Yes, it is Gravatar. Gravatar has 2 big issues. To set up a Gravatar accout means you have to have a cell phone to do so. Those of us without that are out of luck. And Gravatar in the past has had some grave security failures. It is not the most secure SW you could hope for. For the privacy oriented person, Gravatar gets a richly deserved side eye.

        Chris Peterson · 08/05/2023 at 10:01 AM

        Is that something new, associated with initial setup? My Gravatar account doesn’t have a phone associated with it, and when I log in, it doesn’t ask for anything about a phone. Indeed, in my profile, there doesn’t even seem to be a place where I could provide one, except in the list of optional ways that I can be contacted. Where is the security risk? It’s an image and an associated email address. There’s no other information at all.

    Rick O'Sheikh · 08/07/2023 at 4:45 PM

    I don’t know if it is worse, but it is definitely not better, just a bit faster.

ericc · 08/03/2023 at 12:08 PM

𝑊𝑜𝑟𝑘𝑖𝑠𝑚 𝑟𝑒𝑖𝑔𝑛𝑠 𝑖𝑛 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑎, 𝑎𝑛𝑑 𝑏𝑒𝑐𝑎𝑢𝑠𝑒 𝑜𝑓 𝑖𝑡, 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑖𝑛 𝐴𝑚𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑐𝑎, 𝑟𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑔𝑖𝑜𝑢𝑠 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑚𝑢𝑛𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑖𝑛𝑐𝑙𝑢𝑑𝑒𝑑, 𝑖𝑠 𝑎 𝑚𝑎𝑡ℎ 𝑝𝑟𝑜𝑏𝑙𝑒𝑚 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑑𝑜𝑒𝑠𝑛’𝑡 𝑎𝑑𝑑 𝑢𝑝.

That’s a fair criticism. Just look at how the US does vacation, time off, and retirement compared to many other 1st world western nations. However, a culture that gives more value to community time doesn’t result in greater religion. Again, look at the rest of the western 1st world. Church attendence is falling off because there is no longer any social coercion to go. Nobody needs it to get ahead in their job or their community.

𝑃𝑒𝑟ℎ𝑎𝑝𝑠 𝑚𝑜𝑟𝑒 𝑖𝑚𝑝𝑜𝑟𝑡𝑎𝑛𝑡, 𝑖𝑡 [𝑡ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑙𝑖𝑚𝑖𝑡𝑒𝑑, 𝑠ℎ𝑜𝑟𝑡-𝑡𝑒𝑟𝑚 𝑎𝑖𝑑] 𝑟𝑒𝑚𝑖𝑛𝑑𝑠 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑛𝑡𝑖𝑡𝑦 𝑖𝑠 𝑛𝑜𝑡 𝑖𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑖𝑟 𝑗𝑜𝑏 𝑜𝑟 ℎ𝑜𝑤 𝑚𝑢𝑐ℎ 𝑚𝑜𝑛𝑒𝑦 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑚𝑎𝑘𝑒

If you are accurately describing their mindset, then they have it completely and utterly backwards. My identity is connected to the long-term relations I have. Someone giving me limited short-term aid is *telling me*, by their actions, that they don’t want to be a meaningful part of my life.

𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑖𝑑𝑒𝑎 ℎ𝑒𝑟𝑒 𝑖𝑠 𝑡ℎ𝑎𝑡 𝐽𝑒𝑠𝑢𝑠 𝑑𝑒𝑙𝑖𝑏𝑒𝑟𝑎𝑡𝑒𝑙𝑦 𝑠𝑒𝑡𝑠 ℎ𝑖𝑠 𝑝𝑒𝑜𝑝𝑙𝑒 𝑢𝑝 𝑓𝑜𝑟 𝑓𝑎𝑖𝑙𝑢𝑟𝑒, 𝑠𝑜 𝑤ℎ𝑒𝑛 𝑡ℎ𝑒𝑦 𝑠𝑢𝑐𝑐𝑒𝑒𝑑 𝑖𝑡’𝑙𝑙 𝑙𝑜𝑜𝑘 𝑒𝑥𝑡𝑟𝑎-𝑖𝑚𝑝𝑟𝑒𝑠𝑠𝑖𝑣𝑒 𝑡𝑜 𝑜𝑛𝑙𝑜𝑜𝑘𝑒𝑟𝑠.

Theological aside, but I never took the beatitudes to mean “God actively goes to the effort of beating you down before he lets you win.” I took them to mean ‘other people may beat you down, and the world may be unfair, but don’t worry, God sees this unfairness and will correct it.’

I mean, many NT passages have that Tarantino revenge flick vibe. But I never read them as first putting God in the bad guy role then switching him up to the good guy role. The Tarantino-esque bad guy who sets up the revenger’s justification is the material world bosses. Romans, Pharisees, etc. Maybe sometimes Satan? But never God.

    smrnda · 08/03/2023 at 4:53 PM

    Europe has very low religious attendance, but far better work life balance due to government policies. there are better ways to find community and spend your free time.

    In my area there’s a lot of interest groups, gaming groups, volunteer organizations and such that people join, along with people who are into things like art, music and theater. If someone wanted some community, there’s all these far more fun and less judgmental ways to get it.

Artor · 08/03/2023 at 12:10 PM

The opposite-day deepities Cas quotes remind me of this clip from one of the greatest superhero movies ever made: https://youtu.be/b5I94bT23cQ?t=92 RIP to The Spleen.

OldManShadow · 08/03/2023 at 1:41 PM

Calvinist god is a monster who deliberately made thinking, feeling beings to torture for all eternity to show how merciful he is to the ones he chose not to torture for all eternity.

The communist language is probably a loose association with Acts 4:

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had… [so] that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.”

From each according to his ability to each according to his need.

Problem is that Evangelicalism will never accept that model for reasons you touched on. Evangelicalism is too tied up with the idea of “America” as a perfect city on a hill. Capitalism is a central idea of that “America”. Evangelicalism adapted and spent centuries comforting the rich, comforting the slave-owning plantation owner, finding fault with the poor, justifying the massive wealth disparity as a divine blessing on “hard work”.

You can’t divorce Evangelicalism from the economic and political ideals without a massive revolt from the laity. Any pastor who tried would find himself looking for a new job.

No, you built the monster, Sir. You cannot fix it and turn it towards good now that it’s roaming the village murdering peasants and setting fires.

Best you can do is take your own advice: go, sell all that you have, give it to the poor and to the victims of Evangelical Christianity. Then you might find salvation from the legacy you helped build.

jennny · 08/03/2023 at 1:50 PM

Re: Rice x-tians. This Guardian article of 2017 explains it well.
I quote:
Ram Maya Sunar had two miscarriages. Then she had a daughter, who died of pneumonia when she was one. “My second child died from tuberculosis at just six months. I’m still haunted by it,” Sunar says, sitting outside her concrete block hut in the village of Thakaldanda, in southern Nepal’s Makwanpur district.
When she became pregnant again, Sunar sought out an unlikely remedy. Rather than call the local shamans, as she had done before, she joined a church.
The 35-year-old, a Hindu, converted to x-tianity and gave birth to a healthy daughter, and later a son. “They are my gifts from God,” she says.
The growth of Christianity is driven by motivations that appear to have more to do with health, discrimination and poverty than pure belief. And behind the conversions, critics say, is the presence of well-funded foreign missionaries.The growth of Christianity is driven by motivations that appear to have more to do with health, discrimination and poverty than pure belief. And behind the conversions, critics say, is the presence of well-funded foreign missionaries.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/aug/15/they-use-money-to-promote-christianity-nepal-battle-for-souls

    Robert C · 08/06/2023 at 6:00 PM

    The Third World version of the Prosperity Gospel.

Carstonio · 08/03/2023 at 5:38 PM

Another example of evangelicals thinking they know what is best for the individual and for society, and becoming frustrated when the people they’re ostensibly trying to attract rightly resent that paternalistic attitude. The delusion that evangelicalism is a cure-all for social problems.

It resembles the Republican attitude in the years leading up to the Trump presidency – instead of genuine outreach to women and non-white people, the party told itself it had no animosity toward those groups while pushing policies that harmed the groups.

Evangelical Christianity has only itself to blame for its membership decline, and not because it’s asking too little of potential converts. Meador’s idea of community rejects any notion of pluralism, almost a localized version of a national religion. An individual should be able to live in a community without attendance in a particular religion being a requirement or social obligation.

Carstonio · 08/03/2023 at 6:09 PM

OT: If you can’t type text in the Comment box, click in the Comment Search box and click Shift-Tab. That seems to work for me.

Ubi Dubium · 08/03/2023 at 7:10 PM

There is some truth to the idea that people will put a higher value on things that they worked hard to obtain. There are some religious groups that do function by asking a whole lot more from their members. Mormons and Scientology come to mind. But there are a couple of important differences between what they do and what Meador wants evangelicals to do. First, their over-the-top requirements are never the humanitarian take-care-of-each-other sort of thing. Instead, they are “honest, personally expensive, hard-to-fake symbols of commitment.” Their loyalty tests aren’t something that just anyone might do, they are the crazy stuff that you would never ever do unless you are actually dedicated to proving yourself a loyal member. And the second part is that these religions are deliberately structured so that anybody who wants a position of power has to do the crazy loyalty-proving stuff first. Evangelicalism isn’t structured that way, and the people in power are going to work very hard to be sure it never is.

    Astrin Ymris · 10/02/2023 at 9:11 AM

    It’s also that if you require people to participate in some church activity several times a week, you get more opportunities to reinforce the brainwashing. It also ensures that the “mark” has less opportunity to make friends with non-group members, which inhibits them from leaving the fold. If all your social contacts are fellow believers, then deconstructing comes with a built-in penalty.

lleefile · 08/04/2023 at 12:22 PM

A lifetime in church, now serenely atheist, this Meador statement reminds me of every church committee I ever sat through: “We could be a witness to another way of life outside conventionally American measures of success. (We) Churches could model better, truer sorts of communities, ones in which the hungry are fed, the weak are lifted up, and the proud are cast down.”

Translation – Because of course (but don’t actually say it) we are better than everyone, and of course we have to monitor all those people who want to take advantage of us and of course they are such losers, and lazy, but JESUS is the answer. Ok – now what do we do for a ministry in our community? Any ideas???

And they wonder why we left. I wonder why it took me so long to do so.

    Robert C · 08/26/2023 at 1:23 PM

    “But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, yada yada, blah, blah, blah…” They’re “the light of the world.”

    They’re “royals.” “Special.” The rest of humanity are sinners, lost, living in darkness, goats, weeds fit to be burned, etc. Little wonder they’re smug, judgmental, and at the same time oleaginous, obnoxious, humorless, and condescending.

Polytropos · 08/04/2023 at 3:51 PM

I firmly believe that the main reason why they like to promote an environment where people have few opportunities, and hard lives, is to try and force people to join. They know people with few real world opportunities are more likely to turn to religion. It’s no accident that Christianity has become more overtly anti-education at a time when opportunities and living standards are increasingly tied to educational levels. Nor is it an accident that fundagelicism promotes a large, single income family structure which is financially unsustainable for almost everyone.

Robert C · 08/04/2023 at 7:08 PM

 “truer sorts of communities…”

A cult. “Jesusing harder” is always the answer because it’s the only answer.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-jesus-cult-robert-conner/1142060343

    Captain Cassidy · 08/04/2023 at 8:07 PM

    It’s a win-win for the Christians pushing that idea. There’s no way for them to lose. For those trying to take the advice, there’s no way for them to win.

      Robert C · 08/26/2023 at 1:01 PM

      The theocrats finally got the Supreme Court they’ve always lusted after and it’s been pretty much downhill ever since. We’ll have more evidence after 2024, but it looks like the more points they score, the fewer fans they have. It may turn out that every day on the Christian calendar is April 1.

Richard Wade · 08/04/2023 at 7:13 PM

I’ve said this elsewhere before, but this time I’ll use a metaphor.

Religions see their membership numbers dropping, and they run around trying to fix whatever is wrong, such as their anti-science attitudes, their bigotries, their right-wing politics, their greed, and their sexual and financial abuses to name but a few. Often their remedies just make the decline worse.

All those things have been driving people out, BUT even if they cleaned up all of that, they’d still be shrinking. They’re ignoring one foundational cause of their decline because they can’t do anything about it.

Magic is going out of style.

Magic is just the more honest term for the euphemism “supernaturalism.” Long ago, belief in the supernatural was ubiquitous and constant. Today it’s still widespread, but it’s subject to regions and to time. It’s thin or even nonexistent in some places, and its strength changes up and down over time, but the very long-term trend is toward thinner and weaker.

Here’s the metaphor: The religions are a group of boats on a placid lake. The boat captains notice that they seem to be moving down, so they panic, thinking that they must be sinking. Some do find leaks and struggle to patch them, others toss out excess ballast, still others concentrate on changing their courses. A few actually do sink because of problems with their boats, but they’re all missing the bigger picture:
The lake is drying up.

The lake is belief in supernaturalism. Belief in magical beings and magical powers is what keeps all religions afloat. The boats might be decrepit or in good shape, but they’ll all eventually settle on the dry lake bed, rot, turn to dust, and blow away. Our species is very, very slowly growing up and leaving belief in magic behind. It will take another century or so.

Rick O'Sheikh · 08/05/2023 at 9:56 AM

I say Christianity never even existed at all. There were always many Christianities that lived and evolved side by side, most often not peacefully. I often think of a line from the movie (and book) Zorba the Greek: When, in a small town a Russian woman dies, the Greek villagers loot her house and the priest will not give her any kind of funeral. Zorba is asked why not, since she too was a Christian. He answers bitterly that the local priest will not give her a funeral because when she made the sign of the cross she used four fingers.

    Robert C · 08/06/2023 at 5:58 PM

    Sociologists of religion can’t even define “belief.” Believers don’t take a course, pass a test, and get a license. Is belonging believing? Is belief rational or more like a feeling? According to some estimates there are around 40,000 “official” Christian sects that apparently exist because of a difference in beliefs. How many young people self-identify as Christian just to keep gramma’s head from exploding? In what sense are Christians who have never read the New Testament really Christians? Obviously lots of Christians do their own thing regardless of what the Bible says about same sex attraction, divorce, and giving all your stuff to the poor.

      Rick O'Sheikh · 08/07/2023 at 1:06 PM

      Some Sufi masters talked about a difference between faith and belief centuries ago. They used some mental gymnastics to try to say you can still have faith and not believe in the reality of the myths the religion is based on. Like Jim Harpur, the Canadian Anglican preacher who came to the conclusion that Jesus probably never even existed all, and yet continued – and was allowed to continue ! – preaching his flavor of Christianity. These people are the few exceptions who have come to realize what goes on in their own brains, but the vast majority don’t even ask themselves any questions at all.

Richard Wade · 08/05/2023 at 5:37 PM

All the causes of Christianity’s unrelenting decline, both real and imagined are in the end, beside the point. Even if every church were to correct all the things they do that make people leave or keep them away, they would still continue to shrink toward extinction.

This is because in the background of all that, a much wider, more essential change is happening. Magic is going out of style.

Magic is the more honest term for the euphemistic term supernaturalism. For centuries, supernaturalism was ubiquitous and constant. The world was thickly carpeted wall-to-wall with belief in all things supernatural, but that is changing.
Now, supernaturalism is still widespread, but much of the carpet is significantly thinner, and there are bare holes in it. Instead of being constant, belief in magical things waxes and wanes, and despite its up-and-down line on survey charts, the long-term trend is down.

All the religions are like boats on a lake. The crews think they’re sinking, and some are, but even as they scramble to patch their leaky hulls, the lake is drying up. Belief in magical beings, powers, abilities, objects, and words is drying up. The boats will be left listing on a caked mud flat to rot, turn to dust, and blow away.

Humanity is growing up and “putting away childish things.” It will take another century or two, but supernaturalism will be essentially extinct.

    Rick O'Sheikh · 08/06/2023 at 11:25 AM

    In a way one can say that religion has been dead for a couple of centuries. It has just not been buried yet. What we still see today is the last kick of a dying mule: The role and power of religion have changed so much that we are no longer talking about the same thing that was prevalent before the Industrial Revolution and the consolidation of capitalism. Before, religion was closely tied to morality. To be a non-believer was a sure sign of immorality, even evil. The whole society perceived thing that way. You could be an “atheist” in the sense of not observing the rules of your religion, that would have been bad enough, but to declare that you were an atheist in the sense that you did not believe in the existence of the god(s) of your society, that was a crime often punishable by death. Today, religion and the gods are largely perceived as a matter of individual opinion. Which brings up the second sign that religion has been dead: It used to have the power to have you executed for being an atheist. It had the authority and the power to force you to obey its rules or else be eliminated. It still has that power in some Muslim countries, like Iran and Saudi Arabia, but it is no longer the case in the West. It could still make your social and professional life difficult up until not too long ago in the US, but it has not had the power to have you burned, strangled or quartered for a long time now. It has been totally defanged, and to me that is akin to being dead.

    Chris Peterson · 08/06/2023 at 12:01 PM

    I wish that were true, but I’m doubtful. Supernaturalism is still very much in style, it’s just that a lot of it adopts woo in forms that we wouldn’t describe as “religion”. But more to the point (and echoing a comment I made elsewhere), our “growing up” is a function of creating free and wealthy societies. If we lose that, I think we’ll fall right back into supernaturalism, and probably in the form of religion. Magic is a great comfort to those who are in poor circumstances… much more than truth.

    Robert C · 08/26/2023 at 1:11 PM

    Good analogy; the lake of supernatural causes is drying up. Science isn’t killing religion directly, just making it irrelevant. “Thoughts and prayers,” but if you find a strange lump, the real answer is oncology. Flip a switch and there’s light. Turn on the tap and there’s water. Science. Looking for an address? Map it on your phone and plug it into your car’s navigation system. Science. Self checkout at the supermarket? Science again. “Jesus is the jab,” and “washed in the blood” on the other hand probably account for some 300,000+ preventable COVID-19 deaths just in the U.S. As I’ve said before, every day on the Christian calendar is April 1.

Maltnothops · 08/07/2023 at 9:21 PM

A new commenting system? I’ve come to hate that which is billed as progress but which is merely different. Be that as it may….

Some friends and I recently staged a “yard intervention” for another friend on a Sunday morning. He was quite ill and his yard needed a lot of work before his daughter was to be married in their yard a few days later. I told him and his wife to make a list, Five of us showed up and spent a few hours making everything shipshape. 1 Catholic, 1 Jew, and 3 atheists. We didn’t need to be churchgoers to do a “community” thing.

WCB · 08/09/2023 at 12:49 PM

NPR has a short interview with Russell Moore. He telss how many of his parishoners have rejected the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon On The Mount. Non÷ of this “Turn the other cheek” liberalism. “That was then, this is now”. Modern day evangelicals want a muscular Jesus, not a wimpy Jesus it would seem.

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/08/1192663920/southern-baptist-convention-donald-trump-christianity

Wandering Spider · 08/10/2023 at 2:19 PM

The first thought I had was that they could give up on economic politics that worsen life for everyone who works. Then people might at least hate them a little less.

But then, they’d never listen to someone like me-on multiple levels-anyways so…

Carstonio · 08/12/2023 at 8:20 AM

Salon.com suggests that Meador’s pseudo-Marxist approach is mostly about enforcing subordination of women:

https://www.salon.com/2023/08/12/compassionate-christian-authoritarianism-the-leftist-utopia-the-right-thinks-will-save-the-church/

DingoJack · 08/31/2023 at 11:32 PM

So Jake, it’s ‘workism’ [a terrible label BTW, but let’s go with it] that’s causing Christianity, specifically Evangelical Christianity, to decline?
If that were the case then in places that provide a better ‘life-work’ balance Christianity would be flourishing, right? Oh, look at that. That ain’t the case.
Perhaps it’s something else causing the decline?
I know, I know, total craziness.

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