As one of only a few survivors of the 1980s evangelism campaigns extinction event, the Chick tract evangelism campaign has remarkable staying power. Though its numbers fell to critical levels in the 1990s-2000s, evangelical conservationists have made remarkable efforts to sustain this rare and enchanting beast.
Alas, they may be too late to save it from complete extinction.
(Related: A Jack Chick retrospective; The culture of Chick Tracts.)
An overview of Chick tract evangelism
Chick tract evangelism is a subset of tract evangelism, which itself is a subset of personal evangelism.
Personal evangelism involves face-to-face recruitment. Very often, a personal evangelist is a layperson rather than a professional recruiter like Billy Graham. Personal evangelists often try to recruit friends and family, but they seem to prefer approaching total strangers.
Tract evangelism involves handing people religious tracts instead of talking to them as personal evangelism requires. Most evangelicals consider it far less confrontational than other methods of recruitment. A religious tract is a small booklet containing religious arguments. It seeks to persuade readers to join a particular religious group.
Chick tract evangelism involves handing people religious tracts made by Jack Chick’s company, Chick Publications. Jack Chick himself died in 2016, but his company lives on.
A Chick tract is a small cartoon booklet containing stories that try to persuade its readers to join the religious group of the person handing them out. It is extremely similar in form to Tijuana Bibles, which were similarly-sized cartoon booklets containing very sexual stories (often featuring copyrighted characters like Popeye and Daffy Duck; link is NSFW).
As far as I have ever seen, Chick tract evangelism is the only well-known subset of tract evangelism. No other company producing tracts has achieved this distinction.
The wild and woolly days of evangelism plenty were good for Chick tract evangelism
Back in the 1980s, evangelicals found personal evangelism to be relatively easy. Since their groups held cultural and social dominance in America, and since Christianity itself was the nation’s dominant religion, evangelicals only had to persuade existing Christians to switch to their own groups.
Huge incoming waves of young recruits made evangelism even easier. These recruits had not grown up in evangelicalism. As a result, they took evangelical recruitment promises seriously, while young adults reared in evangelical churches had learned—often at great personal cost—not to take any of that twaddle as real. And new recruits had a great deal of zeal, so they seemed to have far less trouble with the idea of personal evangelism than their hand-reared peers did.
This grand age of recruitment megafauna lumbered across the plains of Christianity and ushered in a number of evangelism subsets that flourished for a while. Youth ministers seemed to love coming up with ways to pack their recruitment events with decoys that would interest their prey.
Two big favorites here were Christian concerts and pizza blasts. They both operated similarly: Offer youth-oriented Christian pop music or free pizza, then bring in the fire-and-brimstone preachers to perform the actual recruitment pitches. A lesser-known recruitment and devotional event, the lock-in, may shock modern audiences due to its requirement of locking church doors to prevent attendees from leaving. But back then, it wasn’t regarded as an issue at all.
How Chick tract evangelism achieved popularity
It was a grand age of gullibility, most of all.
Conversion testimonies got more and more fanciful, with demons and illicit sexcapades galore, and not one person ever thought to fact-check anything about them. Similarly, evangelical recruiters told gaudily-embellished stories that contained fantastical claims that likewise somehow never got questioned or criticized. As well, almost all of the “Arguments to Avoid” noted by Creationist site Answers in Genesis began or gained popularity around this time. I myself encountered “Joshua’s Missing Day” in the 1980s.
Chick tracts combined fanciful testimonies with fantastical claims, overly-simplistic moralizing, and promises of harsh punishment for those who disregarded evangelicals’ demands. Their creator(s) held to an extremely fringe set of beliefs for the time. These included Young-Earth Creationism (the Earth being less than 6k years old) and Catholicism being a demonic fakery meant to dupe billions of people into going to Hell.
It’s worth noting that the faux-experts Jack Chick consulted for his tracts included Creationist Kent Hovind, who is a convicted felon and the writer of possibly the dumbest doctoral dissertation ever made, and anti-Catholic crusader Alberto Rivera, who was actually a conjob posing as an ex-Catholic priest. In particular, Rivera claimed that as a priest, he’d performed espionage and sabotage missions for his superiors. (But somehow and despite being all tight with the Vatican, ol’ Alberto apparently missed all the child rape going on.)
I hope evangelicals savored these days of wild claims and titillating testimonies. There’ll never be another age quite like it.
Chick tract evangelism flourished in these heady years
During the 1980s and even into the 1990s, it was not uncommon at all to find Chick tracts everywhere. They could be found in particularly large herds on and around college campuses.
But these tracts weren’t free. No religious tracts ever are. Chick Publications sold—and still sells—their products in bundles both large and small to suit any evangelism campaign. At the time, evangelicals could also easily find them packaged for sale in most religious bookstores.
Once a religious group or individual purchases these tracts, they then go forth to hand them out to passersby and friends alike—and to stuff them in innocuous spots for someone to discover. I personally knew people who stuffed Creationism-themed Chick tracts into library books about evolutionary biology.
Even back then, these tracts felt like a much socially safer option. And little tiny comic books have a certain disarming appeal that an up-front recruitment pitch just doesn’t.
Chick tract evangelism requires a certain mindset and worldview to succeed
These tracts clung, parasite-like, to various innocuous host vessels. Evangelicals never thought about what they revealed about their end of Christianity. One in particular, “Somebody Loves Me” (archive), is downright horrific in what it unwittingly reveals about evangelicals’ worldview:
A small, impoverished, Hispanic-looking boy’s father beats him to the edge of death. Despondent, the dying boy crawls through the rain to a discarded wooden box in an alley. Though many people see him crawling, nobody stops to help. Once in his box, he shivers and awaits his doom. But then the wind blows a piece of paper to the boy. The paper says “SOMEBODY LOVES YOU.” It confuses him.
A wealthier-looking little girl arrives right then. She reads the paper aloud to him. The boy clutches the paper tightly, marveling at this sign of love. The girl covers him with her plaid coat, then leaves to find help. Alas, he dies before help can arrive. An Aryan angel with preacher hair flies the boy’s spirit/soul to Heaven.
It’s worth noting that one reviewer claims that in the original tract (archive), the girl does not say she’s going to find help. I suspect this reviewer is correct because the words “I’ll go for help” look wedged-in and out of place in the panel. It’s possible that she also didn’t originally cover the boy with her coat, either, since he only has it in one out of five post-leaving panels, along with a tiny plaid bit in a second.
Even with these apparent improvements, it’s striking to see how little “Jesus” apparently cares about a boy living under such awful conditions. Jack Chick only cares about the boy’s conversion, not about improving a single aspect of his life before death or bringing his abusive father to justice.
My Evil Ex, Biff, liked to claim that “Somebody Loves Me” had a hand in his conversion. I didn’t believe this claim even at the time. But it certainly tells people something about Biff that he shouldn’t have wanted anyone to notice.
Aiming a Chick tract to a specific target
Undeterred by a singular lack of success, Jack Chick created slews of different tracts. They all dealt with specific topics like “Off-limits sex makes baby Jesus throw a tizzy fit” or “Doing good deeds won’t get you into Heaven.” A long-running theme involved the Satanic Panic, with star standout “Dark Dungeons” acquiring popularity for all the wrong reasons, at least among people who played tabletop roleplaying games.
How could anyone not love these overwrought fever dreams?
Years after that contrived moral panic had dribbled to an end, someone even made a fantastic movie adaptation of the tract. (We reviewed it, too. Most excellent, highly rated. Definitely check it out!)
Back then, a number of evangelicals tried to find Chick tracts that corresponded to whatever they saw as their target’s most pressing need. Was their target…
- Gay? Hand them “The Gay Blade“!
- A non-Creationist? They need “And It Was Good.”
- Mormon? Obviously, they should see “The Visitors.”
- Black? Hand them the supremely offensive “It’s a Deal.”
- Freemasons? That’s a job for “Good Ol’ Boys.”
I knew evangelicals who carried all sorts of Chick tracts on them while evangelizing, just so they could draw out the appropriate one for each target.
And I’m sure Chick Publications didn’t mind all those extra purchases.
Chick tract evangelism might be making trying to make a comeback
For many years, these little comic booklets were all but ubiquitous on college campuses. Then, as the 2000s and 2010s rolled past, they faded into obscurity. I no longer caught sight of them on amused Reddit posts, or saw people on social media asking what on Earth they’d just found in a public bathroom.
But recently, I’ve been seeing them return to public awareness.
One that a college student recently spotted in the wild was the relatively-recently-made “Love the Jewish People.” It’s one of about six Judaism-targeting tracts.
Like most older evangelicals, Jack Chick had a major obsession with Judaism and Jewish mythology. He really bought into the pro-Israel culture war that American evangelicals have waged for years, since they think Israel’s existence will be of great importance during the end of the world. With the recent attack on Israel by Hamas and Israel’s retaliation, evangelicals have likely wanted to reinforce that imaginary partnership.
(Related: Evangelicals’ raging Israel boner)
The student who found it had no idea what in the world it was. This tract ran completely outside her worldview. Nothing in her entire frame of reference correlated with it. And here’s the funny part: Her parents are longtime veterans of the atheist-evangelical culture wars. They knew immediately what it was.
I didn’t ask, but I bet it felt incredibly weird for those parents to try to explain to their daughter what she had discovered. There’s just no single word of that explanation that has any idea what the other words are going to be.
Chick tract evangelism, like all similar forms of evangelism, offers a poor return on investment
Quite a few evangelicals think that tract evangelism in general is wildly successful. These evangelicals almost always have some kind of vested interest in tract creation or marketing, or else they happen to prefer tract evangelism to other forms of evangelism.
(Related: Manga Messiah, the new comic-book evangelism campaign in Japan.)
Aspiring evangelists definitely don’t prefer tract evangelism because it’s more effective than other kinds of evangelism—even with Chick tracts!
Most forms of evangelism have extremely low rates of return. But the less interpersonal contact the form involves, the less effective it’ll be. Handing people stuff to read is about as impersonal as one can possibly get while still interacting face-to-face.
Chick tracts probably do a little better than other brands of tracts, simply because they look so different. But even they aren’t particularly effective.
Not that we have exact stats for any form of evangelism, of course. Evangelical hucksters haven’t done much any objective research on any of their evangelism techniques. All they have to go by is perceived returns on investment.
That’s how pizza blasts slowly faded from the evangelical landscape, as did the small-scale Christian evangelism concert. There didn’t come a time when some bigwig in evangelicalism declared that they weren’t effective. Instead, churches gradually sensed that these events no longer brought in many young converts. One by one, they stopped doing them.
Tract evangelism—including Chick tract evangelism—is harder to pin down for effectiveness. Most of the return occurs outside of the evangelist’s presence, when the target (theoretically) finally opens the little comic book and reads it. Unless the target shows up at the evangelist’s own church, the tract hand-off is their only contact.
Evangelicals love to comfort themselves in these cases by thinking they’ve planted seeds, as the Christianese goes. However, even when I was one of them I noticed that hardly anybody ever mentioned tracts of any kind in their conversion testimonies. I’ve kept an ear open since my deconversion, but I’ve heard even fewer mentions.
But it’s just so easy to perform tract evangelism that it’ll always have fans. And that fact leads us to one of the most important truths about Chick tract evangelism.
Effectiveness was never the primary issue here
I used to think it was really weird that apologetics media was so singularly ineffective with the people it targeted. Consider the apologetics section of any big-box bookstore or a religious bookstore (if any brick-n-mortar ones even exist anymore). Consider all those books promising foolproof, no-fail apologetics routines that will blow heathens’ li’l minds and get them sobbing on their knees in no time flat.
And then consider that every one of those books is ridiculously puerile, simplistic, fallacy-laden, condescending, and worse. None of their offerings ever lasts a microsecond past impact with an actual heathen. It’s always been this bad, and it’s only gotten worse as evangelicals began their decline in earnest.
Then, slowly, we heathens realized that apologetics materials weren’t actually aimed at us, but at those actually purchasing them.
That’s how Chick tract evangelism works, too.
It’s not about the return on investment. It never was.
It’s not really even about conversions, or about performing evangelism of any kind.
It never was.
The manufacturers and marketers of Chick tracts, like those of all tracts, get their money from evangelicals, not from heathens. All they need to do is convince evangelicals to purchase their products. Once the purchase is made, the transaction is complete. It doesn’t matter if not a single person converts after that.
It only matters if evangelicals themselves can be persuaded that the product does what it says on the tin, so to speak. And as that college student discovered on her campus, some evangelicals out there still think that.
120 Comments
sadoldguy · 02/11/2024 at 6:03 PM
I figured that chick tracts would generate a lot of scholarship so I checked out the topic “chick tracts” on Google scholar. There seems to be about sixteen pages for show all, four pages since 2020, and eight articles for the last year or so. That seems low but it looks like most discussions of chick tracts are on websites that are not considered “scholarly”.
Ficino · 02/11/2024 at 9:46 PM
As a closeted gay college student who had recently gotten “saved,” I still found the Gay Blade tract very offensive. I never took Chick tracts (or “tracks,” as some called them) after that.
I don’t think I ever actually handed out any, either. I did hand out other tracts.
“If you can’t think of what to say, you can still hand them a track,” one geezer told us.
jfnavin · 02/11/2024 at 11:49 PM
Many try to stop me, shake me up in my mind
Say, “Prove to me that He is Lord, show me a sign”
What kind of sign they need when it all come from within
When what’s lost has been found, what’s to come has already been?
Well I’m pressing on
Yes, I’m pressing on
Well I’m pressing on
To the higher calling of my Lord
Shake the dust off of your feet, don’t look back
Nothing now can hold you down, nothing that you lack
Temptation’s not an easy thing, Adam given the devil reign
Because he sinned I got no choice, it run in my vein
Well I’m pressing on
Yes, I’m pressing on
Well I’m pressing on
To the higher calling of my Lord
bob dylan
Ficino · 02/12/2024 at 5:27 PM
Downvote. I say that I found Chick tracts objectionable, and you quote lyrics by a guy whose religious opinions have flip-flopped for decades.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 1:43 AM
A war rages–behind the scenes. 24/7. You were saved. You handed out tracts. You hoped to reach others for Christ? Dylan did, too. It is a common experience among the saved to want to reach out immediately with the joy we’ve been given, hoping others will find him/joy as well.
You didn’t like Chick tracts? I liked tracts, okay. I didn’t pay much attention to them. But, the poor little guy found Jesus, apparently, through the information it presented.
I don’t know where Dylan’s at these days. God, help him. He found Christ, too. We are free to leave him behind any time we want to.
When we experience God, we will be attacked. A spiritual world is very much a part of our universe. We are not alone.
As far as the little guy dying tragically, he went to heaven, if I understand the message. We, everyone, will die. What a relief that will be. It is reality. Christ said, be ready. It was sad that he died so young, but he gets to enjoy Christ/Paradise forever. No more pain. No tears. No suffering.
BensNewLogIn · 02/13/2024 at 11:49 AM
You get exactly the same results – no pain, no tears, no suffering – by being dead.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 1:00 PM
That isn’t all, but perhaps you already have heard about the joy and bliss, etc?
BensNewLogIn · 02/14/2024 at 1:04 PM
So I’m told. But you can read article after article about Pastor burnout, sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, gay people wrecking their lives by being slaves to anti gay religious dogma, the sexual scandals of so many so-called religious people, the failure of the Christian God to save anyone in a church shooting, fervent Christian believers dying of starvation in Africa and on and on and on and on
Nice middle-class people don’t have to deal with much of that.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 7:13 PM
But, heaven’s waiting. I am going to take the first 300,000,000,000 years to bask in the Arizona sun and to swim in pools and play water volleyball.
Omnicrom · 02/15/2024 at 11:56 PM
Assuming you’re correct about your religion.
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 2:12 AM
If you’re right about your religion, you won’t be allowed. Heaven is the most abject slavery to the worst traitor and you’re forced to love it.
jfnavin · 02/11/2024 at 11:01 PM
The scientific method is the process of objectively establishing facts through testing and experimentation.
Science is very important. “…the process of objectively establishing facts through testing and experimentation.”
It is sad for me to think about anyone missing out on knowing him. I wish I could place Him inside people. “Then you’d know how deeply He loves you,” I think.
Many have found in him what they’ve longed for all their lives–some weren’t even aware of it until they found him.
He promises, if you seek him with your whole heart, He will enter your life. Experiment. See if that is true, if you’d like. Science uses experimentation. He will prove He is God. IMO. What is lost if you test him out?
bonhommer · 02/11/2024 at 11:11 PM
“ I wish I could place Him inside people.”
Phrasing?
jfnavin · 02/12/2024 at 2:55 AM
Not like that! LOL!
jennny · 02/12/2024 at 8:40 AM
You do know, jf that you’re preaching to the deconverted here? Many of us regulars were x-tians for decades, like the Captain was. It was with mounting horror in many cases, that we came to realise that this ‘loving father’ and ‘our saviour jesus’ are fictitious. Some of us jesus-ed our socks off 24/7 all our adult lives, before seeing the truth that gods are figments of human imagination. As the estimable Bruce Gerencser said of his deconversion, in his blog, ‘I have found the Promised Land,’ Why would I return to Egypt?’ (I recommend his writings, if you dare go there.)
jfnavin · 02/12/2024 at 9:31 AM
Many leave him. We’ve been doing so for thousands of years. We are free to stay and free to go. I have desired to leave him about every 45 minutes.
jfnavin · 02/12/2024 at 9:33 AM
What about you, Jenny? What happened, if you would like to share?
mfm420 · 02/17/2024 at 6:43 AM
so, what happened to you that you still need an invisible friend at this point?
yeah, you really need to read the room and realize that unlike you, we opened our eyes and accepted reality.
shame you won’t.
also, what’s gods plan for a 5 year raped daily by their parents?
figure if you’re gonna ask questions, i can do the same.
Omnicrom · 02/13/2024 at 2:21 PM
So you don’t have a response to Jennny’s point? Your initial argument was that you should test for your god and he’ll reveal himself as true! Jennny points out many people tested for their god and he was revealed to be false.
Your response is “People are free to leave him”. That’s not what happened, Jennny pointed out that people deconverted because he wasn’t real. It’s not a matter of “choosing to leave something you know is true”, it’s the opposite! It’s “choosing to leave something you’ve realized is false.”
Until you manage to understand that and the difference between those things you’ll make no headway here.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 7:26 PM
It’s not a matter of “choosing to leave something you know is true”, it’s the opposite! It’s “choosing to leave something you’ve realized is false.”
That makes sense. The original followers stuck it out even though they faced unrelenting persecution, violence and even death. Why? Why sacrifice all for a lie?
Omnicrom · 02/16/2024 at 12:05 AM
Because they thought it was true. People can believe things that are untrue. Do you really think this line of question is some kind of stunning zinger or something?
And if you are seriously going to go in on the argumentum ad martyrdom then answer this: During Christianity’s expansion in the middle ages they gave “Convert or Die” edicts to many believers of Norse and other cultural and folk religions. Some of those believers chose death in the face of unrelenting persecution.
Tell me, why would those believers in the divinity of Thor and Odin stick it out? Why? Why sacrifice all for a lie?
jfnavin · 02/16/2024 at 2:35 AM
“Because they thought it was true”
Exactly! Why would they make up this story about Christ, knowing it was complete bull, and allow themselves to be tortured, murdered, flogged, starved, lose family, friends, their Jewish heritage, their social standing, everything they had ever known, to perpetuate the silly garbage that they themselves created?
Omnicrom · 02/16/2024 at 9:31 PM
Exactly! Why would they make up this story about Thor, knowing it was complete bull, and allow themselves to be tortured, murdered, flogged, starved, lose family, friends, their Nordic heritage, their social standing, everything they had ever known, to perpetuate the silly garbage that they themselves created?
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 10:35 PM
Jenny, when you realized he never was, did something in particular precipitate your awareness or was it just like an accumulation of things over time? That must have been a major life-changing time in your life. I hope you are doing well, now, and will continue to find meaning and joy. Thanks for sharing your life with us.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 2:29 AM
A penny for your thoughts. I said many leave him and their reasons are as varied as those who go away. You indicated you discovered after many years of total dedication, that He never even existed, ever, which was quite a shock to you. “It was with mounting horror in many cases, that we came to realise that this ‘loving father’ and ‘our saviour jesus’ are fictitious.” When you were following him with such passion at the time, what reason did you have to think He did exist? What was it that kept you so committed?
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 7:19 PM
Jenny, did a few of your fellow Christians find that God became even more precious, more trustworthy, more “real” over time as they fellowshipped with you?
WCB · 02/12/2024 at 11:14 AM
” I wish I could place Him inside people.”
Ezekeil 33
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God seems to be laying down on the job. With the Great Commission of Mark 16, if God wanted everybody to believe in Jesus and Christianity, he could do that as Ezekiel 36 and other similar verses demonstrate. The usual Christian appology God grants us free will does not apply here. God does not have to grant us free will to disbelieve.
God either cannot do this, doesn’t care, or doesn’t exist. It is a 2000 year old fantasy is all.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 3:47 AM
Look at the context.
WCB · 02/13/2024 at 10:57 AM
I have your context right here!
God will change the hearts of the Israelites
Ezekiel 11
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable
things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you;
and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an
heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them:
and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ezekiel 36
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from
all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within
you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will
give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Jeremiah 24
7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall
be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with
their whole heart.
Jeremiah 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my
people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his
brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least
of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their
iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 32
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me
for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will
not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear
in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant
them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after
those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them
in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother,
saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their
iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 10
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the
Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 1:19 PM
What he describes, if I understand it correctly, is a brief summary of Israel’s history and God’s promise to return them to a place of renewal when it is time. When will that be? When they want new hearts, hearts of flesh. God will grant them new hearts so that they will pursue him. I don’t think it is intended to address free will vs predestination, per se. It is simply what the prophet sees taking place at a future time. As Jesus entered Jerusalem for the last time, He seemed to feel terribly sad. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me” Does this make sense?
I think God works in the background to influence events to lead us to him. He doesn’t force anyone to receive him, from what I can tell. Look at the guys executed next to Jesus. One thinks Christ is a jerk and one seems to realize his own part in his punishement. But Jesus was cool. One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
WCB · 02/13/2024 at 3:20 PM
You are talking around the issue these verses demonstrate. You are not addressing the issue. Typical Christian nonsense.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 10:16 PM
Help me. What is the issue? I guess I didn’t understand.
WCB · 02/14/2024 at 1:01 PM
God supposedly tells his prophets he will change the Israelites hearts so they know his statutes and commands and follow them faithfully. Then we have the Great Commission of Mark 16. Why then did not God change the hearts of all mankind to know all the commands of God and Jesus and follow them? There would be no false religion, no unbelievers, no morally evil persons.
A God who could do this (and the Bible tells us God can do so) but does not, gets the blame for all the great horrendous suffering to follows from God’s failure to use his great powers.
This God is a fantasy, a delusion.
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 2:30 PM
“And when they come there, they will remove from it all its detestable things and all its abominations. 19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them.
They repent. He responds. They rid the place of garbage. God gives them new hearts. No?
WCB · 02/14/2024 at 4:47 PM
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them.
It is not a matter of repenting. It is a matter God tells his prophet God will change the Israelites.
CONTEXT!
And read all the verses I posted. CONTEXT!
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 11:51 PM
Got it. Look at the first verse I quoted. They repented. One new heart or as many hearts as the number of those who repented, the point, I think, is exactly what I’ve been saying. By removing the detestable things, they indicate they want to get “right” with God. By doing so, God opens up the heavens, fills our hearts with himself, and we are blessings to ourselves and others. It is a “transaction” described throughout the scriptures.
Carstonio · 02/12/2024 at 11:26 AM
The premise of your post is that the existence of a being is somehow detectable through emotion. A hypothetical person who had never heard of any religion might reasonably mistake that for a fantasy-fiction concept.
The real problem is that anyone can claim to emotionally sense the existence of such a being and claim to know what the being wants for other people, as opposed to what the being wants for the person making the claim.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 3:45 AM
I have given you the wrong impression. My premise is more basic. If you want to know if God exists, He will show you. The manner in which He reveals Himself to you may not stimulate an emotional response. It may, but it is not a given. What He will do, from what I’ve learned, is manifest Who He is to you, individually, personally. Somehow, in Someway, intended for you, for you specifically, for who you are, He will show you without any doubt, that He is real, that He loves you and you can begin a beautiful relationship with Him.
Omnicrom · 02/13/2024 at 2:15 PM
And therefore if he never reveals himself the fault is on the searcher for not wanting to see him enough, correct? A handy little escape hatch. You know in chemistry you can find evidence of a reaction whether you believe in it or not…
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 9:54 PM
So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love.* But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.”
I know what you’re saying. I don’t think an escape hatch applies, though. This isn’t about trying to con people into seeking him, you know? It is more like an exclamation. Guys, you won’t believe this, but God became real to me. I prayed. That’s all. I prayed with my whole heart. And He revealed Himself to me!
If that isn’t true, if that doesn’t fairly describe what happens, it would make no sense to present it as a legitimate path to God. If it does, wow! You know? How cool is that? If it doesn’t hold up, it doesn’t. If there is nothing to it, to Him, this means of finding Him, it will prove to be ridiculous. It is true that some may be convinced anyway. That happens. But, to me, if there is nothing to the claim, eventually, it will go away. Sort of what Gamaliel said. He was a key member of the highest Jewish council called the Sanhedrin. He was Saul’s mentor and teacher before he was converted and changed his name. He said if these nutty Christians are full of bologna, they will fail. If they are onto something big, something of God, we can’t stop them.
So, to some degree you are right. It makes a difference how badly we want to know if He’s real, if He forgives, if He rose to the dead, but it isn’t meant as a put down if someone’s experience is different. And, a child likely would have a much less instantaneous, or immediate, emotional experience than Korn’s Brian Welch.
If I prayed to Soupy Sales for salvation, I doubt Soups, Black Tooth or White Fang will show up any time soon. You know what I mean?
Omnicrom · 02/14/2024 at 12:46 AM
This really isn’t much of a response to my actual salient point, and that escape hatch is still there and still quite as disingenuous as I was concerned it would be. Hell this entire post reads as fatuous. There is a lot of completely irrelevant stuff in here and it does lead me to wonder to what degree you are arguing in good faith.
You can say that you prayed and you believed that your god came to you, that’s nice. What about everyone else? What about every other person who prayed and believed fervently with all their heart in their god and got nothing from it? I remember Captain Cassidy herself wrote an article about the night she deconverted when she prayed her heart out for a sign from her god and got nothing for it. She wanted desperately for a reason to believe and got none. Heaven was silent. What do you say to her? And what do you say to everyone else who prayed to their god and believed that their god revealed itself to them and it wasn’t your god? What do you say to every believer of Islam or Judaism or a branch of Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism or the traditions of Shintoism or the teachings of the Jedi order who prayed for their god to reveal themselves and they did and now they know absolutely 100% in their heart that they are real? And what you say to every other Christian who believes differently from you? And hell, what you say to the person who prayed to Soupy Sales for salvation and received the sign from above that Soups, Black Tooth, and White Fang were going to grant them salvation?
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 2:12 AM
Several folks raised the same issue and i asked to see the testimonies of others from any faith, a number of times. I would like very much to see them, wouldn’t you? It should be informative to examine what every one has to say.
Omnicrom · 02/14/2024 at 2:34 AM
https://www.google.com/search?q=conversion+stories
Here you go, there’s examples from plenty of forms of Christianity. You can also add words like “Hindu” or “Islam” if you like to find their stories.
And now that you have them, now what?
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 5:30 AM
You do realise that the new testament is bullshit mostly written decades if not centuries after the fact. We cannot say that any of the Pauline epistles were written by him, only that at least half weren’t.
Ficino · 02/12/2024 at 5:28 PM
“What is lost if you test him out?”
This cashes out as: “What is lost if you join my church or a church like mine?”
A lot, to judge from the experience of many commentators on here.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 3:33 AM
It is nothing, nothing, at all like joining a church. “It” is about finding if God exists.
Omnicrom · 02/13/2024 at 2:14 PM
He doesn’t. Test case failed.
Now what?
Zaqqum · 02/13/2024 at 1:51 PM
“He promises, if you seek him with your whole heart, He will enter your life. Experiment. See if that is true, if you’d like. Science uses experimentation. He will prove He is God. IMO. What is lost if you test him out?”
This isn’t science at all–what you’re describing is simply the process of trying to convince one’s self that some god is real and talking to them, hardly unique to Christianity. And if that’s what gets you through the night, it’s alright, I guess. But a real god would not need to be sought, especially if it’s the Christian god; the bible tells us he manifests himself with numerous signs and wonders when he chooses. Making us indubitably aware of his existence does not violate anyone’s free will any more than this chat does.
But it does grieve me that you feel sad about people missing out on your belief system–I hope it’s not too much of a burden and doesn’t affect your daily life that badly (which I question given your prolific posting here). You can try praying the sadness away, and when that doesn’t help, there are hopefuly other sources of support you can get for this, wherever you’re at.
Most of the folks here have at one point felt that God/Jesus gave them what they were looking for, good service provider that he/they are. And then reality eroded that feeling away and they realized they needed something more solid in life than the unmet promises of God/Jesus/their church. And most have found that too.
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 10:21 AM
what you’re describing is simply the process of trying to convince one’s self that some god is real
I said that if anyone seeks him with all they are, they will find him
Omnicrom · 02/14/2024 at 12:47 PM
And what’s the difference between those two things? Can you show it?
Zaqqum · 02/14/2024 at 7:37 PM
You’re just restating what I said. A god that has to be sought “with all they are” is not a real god, whose existence, as even Paul stated, should be obvious. The problem for the religious is, it isn’t very obvious–we live in a world that looks exactly like a world without any real gods involved in it. And given the freedom to realize this fact and live their lives in accordance with it, more and more people are doing just that, at the expense of churches closing down left and right (pun intended).
I mean, if anyone seeks Sasquatch/UFOs/jinn/fairies/leprechauns/commies under the bed/tulpas/wendigos/MIBs/lake monsters/ghosts/quality boy bands, ect., they will–and have–found them. Lumping Jesus/God in with this bunch is mighty telling, dontcha think?
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 12:12 AM
Well, leave Sasquatch out of the mix and you’ve got a deal. We happen to be dear friends going way back. In fact, he dated my sister for 3 years. They have twins together.
jfnavin · 02/16/2024 at 4:27 PM
You’re just restating what I said. A god that has to be sought “with all they are” is not a real god, whose existence, as even Paul stated, should be obvious.
Paul said He was obvious but didn’t know who He was until God bopped him on the head
His reality is obvious. The universe announces His reality. That is obvious. Knowing Him personally is different. If you (anyone) has grave doubts, then pursue Him with abandon asking him with complete sincerity and passionate desire, for Him to show you He is, for and to you. I thought you experienced this from what you said before. If you don’t struggle with this God business or if you have no strongly held views either way, pray sincerely, honestly and mean it when you say you really want to know Him. See what happens. It is something one shouldn’t do unless they really, truly want to know wheher or not He is.
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 2:13 AM
Your religion hates science. Because it has made your god tiny and weak.
OldManShadow · 02/12/2024 at 11:02 AM
Chick Tracts were very successful with five or six year-old me whenever I came into contact with them: reinforcing the message I learned from fundie church that God the Father truly, utterly hated me and really wanted to torture me by burning me alive forever and it was only begrudgingly that he wouldn’t do so if I was sincere enough in believing in Jesus and proved that sincerity by perfect obedience.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 1:48 AM
“…fundie church that God the Father truly, utterly hated me…”
Old Man, where did that happen? Which church/pastor told you that? Do you mind sharing that information? That is awful. Is he still preaching the same thing?
OldManShadow · 02/13/2024 at 11:53 AM
Fundamentalist conservative Baptist church. I doubt any of the people there at the time are still alive since they all looked to be eleventy… or it could have just been the perma-scowls aged their skin prematurely.
Oh, yes, we were fully on board with the Satanic panic, demons lurking to possess unwitting children who enjoyed the “wrong” sort of media or music. Demons everywhere. And an angry God at the top of it all who couldn’t even stand to look at us if we didn’t have Jesus to shield us from his anger and wrath.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 12:58 PM
Had Sean Sellers murdered his folks by that time, do you recall? He created quite a stir when he blamed his commitment to satan for shooting them in bed in cold blood.
Carstonio · 02/12/2024 at 11:22 AM
Looking at the tracts from a purely artistic standpoint, they exemplify the trait one sees with right-wing propaganda in general. Even when there’s some drawing or design ability evident, there’s no beauty or imagination. The other end of the spectrum is the gaudy Fox News approach, drenched in flags and eagles and gradients.
At least part of Chick’s intention was almost certainly to try to fling guilt and fear onto non-evangelical readers. The thought of eternal torture can be frightening in a horror-movie sense even if one recognizes the lack of evidence for the existence of a literal hell.
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 7:40 AM
Do you condemn liberals, too? I’m just curious.
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 7:05 AM
For what? It’s the right that hates the US and is trying to destroy it.
jfnavin · 02/18/2024 at 10:52 AM
Captain Cassidy herself wrote an article about the night she deconverted when she prayed her heart out for a sign from her god and got nothing for it. She wanted desperately for a reason to believe and got none. Heaven was silent.
Captain, I can’t find the article you wrote about losing your faith. Can you tell me where I can find it, if you would be so kind?
The night God was silent, that story, when you needed him so desperately? If you can’t find it, would you help me to understand what is was you needed from God that night? Thanks
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 1:20 AM
Captain, why have you referred to the angel as “Aryan angel”?
JuniperAnn · 02/14/2024 at 11:35 PM
Angels have no actual physical form, so you’d think they’d tailor their avatar to appeal to their target—which would probably include taking on a similar racial appearance to their target.
But chick tract employees seem to be pretty uniformly racist, so of course they would think all angel avatars are white.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 12:42 AM
You got me. Originally, the cartoon/tract had a couple of paragraphs typed underneath. It said that an Ayran angel was taking the child to heaven.
lpetrich · 02/15/2024 at 8:37 AM
Because of that angel seemingly having blond hair, thus looking very Nordic.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 2:01 AM
“And then consider that every one of those books is ridiculously puerile, simplistic, fallacy-laden, condescending, and worse…”
That seems unfair. Have you read them? Some books devoted to apologetics sold in religious bookstores are solid, scholary academic volumes. They’ve been persuasive to many.
“The Church” in China is growing, more than making up for the alleged descreases in attendance in the U.S. Millions of folks have begun attending services in chuch basements. They’ve gone underground for spiritual help and community in 12 Step program meetings and are finding Christ. It is the greatest spiritual movement of the past century in America.
jennny · 02/13/2024 at 7:39 AM
Evidence, real evidence for the millions ‘hiding in church basements in China’ please? It’s such an old trope, and one I firmly believed when fundy and visited x-tians in China twice. Yes persecution happens and the CCP has cracked down a lot on dissent in the last 10yrs – Uygurs for instance. I met those worshipping freely in an evangelical congregation of 300 in Shanghai and a scared small group in a suburb who felt they had to be ‘underground.’ They’d managed to find and rent a rare house there that had a big bathtub for baptisms. After my 50yrs experience of devotedly supporting missionaries, I now see that some have to play up the persecution angle and the number of converts, to justify their existence, to keep donations flowing for themselves personally and their mission. I am reliably told too, that the persecuted and the not-persecuted belong to a plethora of chinese denominations and sects whose grasp of ‘bible truth’ you would find very dodgy.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 10:02 AM
No. Millions of Americans and others from around the world have joined AA. They often meet in church basements and other rooms. Not hiding. Just undergrpind in the sense that spiritually is very important to them, not necessarily belonging to a formal denomination.
My comment about China was not intended to raise an issue about their persecution. Nothing along those lines. Rather, they are growing. There are now about 150,000,000 “Christians” living in China as they continue to add to their number, more than making up for the decrease in church attendance in the U.S. (Thanks in part to church planting beginning in 1865 by Hudson Taylor founder of the C.I.M.) Their numbers are increasing in other nations, too. Christ was aware of these kinds of issues when He addressed a number of churches who were struggling in Revelation 3.
Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz · 02/14/2024 at 7:36 PM
“ Some books devoted to apologetics sold in religious bookstores are solid, scholary academic volumes. They’ve been persuasive to many.”
HAHAHA!!! Good one!
Oh wait, you’re serious. Let me laugh even harder.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 7:40 PM
No. You were right. Your fist impression was correct. Imagine Bruce Metzger producing Lexical Aids for Students of New Testament, or The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin Development, and Significance. or Revisiting the Corruption of the New Testament: Manuscript, Patristic, and Apocryphal Evidence (Text and Canon of the New Testament)
lpetrich · 02/15/2024 at 8:47 AM
I’ve seen similar claims about Muslim-dominated Middle Eastern countries, that there are “millions” of Xian converts in such places. I find that totally unconvincing, because if there were that many, then they could easily organize their own militias.
jfnavin · 02/16/2024 at 4:13 PM
Where? Where did you see those claims, if you don’t mind sharing that info. Thanks
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 3:20 PM
i fear you are mistaken.
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 7:07 AM
So China is the modern Prester John? Probably as effective as the original one.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 2:09 AM
Like most older evangelicals, Jack Chick had a major obsession with Judaism and Jewish mythology.
I think many devout Christians have a deep, even profound respect for God’s Chosen. They are the most remarkable people group! They are the brightest, most talented, most unique and successful of all. God has had a dynamic relationship with them and loves them very much.
They gave us the Ten Commandments. If we followed them, our world would be revolutionized entirely. Just 10 commandments!
WCB · 02/13/2024 at 10:54 AM
Why do people want the ten commandments in all schools? because Jesus said to follow them. Mark 10, Luke 18, Matthew 19. But these right winged Christians leave off the rest of what Jesus said about this. To be perfect you lack one thing, sell all you have and give to the poor. At this point the Christians lose interest in what Jesus demands of them.
Many of the ten commandments are religious only. Nothing to do with real morality..
Thou shall not kill. And now, off to Canaan to murder all the Canaanites.
Deuteronomy 20:16
But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 1:36 PM
Love the Lord Thy God, and have no other gods before me… and do what you want? Have you heard that one? No one can be my disciple unless he hates brother/sister/mother/father. What?
Our devotion to him must exceed our love for any/every thing else, is the meaning, I think. I have wondered, why should we love someone we don’t know? How is that possible? It isn’t. But, to know him Is to love him. To me, that explains why I need to be introduced, personally, and to spend time with him in real life and real time. When, if, we do that, that’s when love develops inside our hearts. We experience him and in doing so, we find him lovable. At least, that’s what happened to me. I don’t love because I have to. I can’t help it. See Shadowlands with Debra Winger and Anthony Hopkins.
Omnicrom · 02/13/2024 at 2:22 PM
Which Ten Commandments?
lpetrich · 02/15/2024 at 9:14 AM
There are two sets of “Ten Commandments” in the Bible, the well-known Exodus-20/Deuteronomy-5 version and the Exodus-34 one. He violated several of them and urged his followers to do likewise, violations like working on the Sabbath, showing disrespect to one’s parents, obstructing justice in an adultery case, stealing, and according to one noncanonical Gospel, murdering.
Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11 — Jesus Christ defends his disciples’ plucking grain on a Sabbath; he also heals someone in that Sabbath.
Luke 13:10-17 — Jesus Christ again heals someone on a Sabbath.
Luke 14:1-6 — Jesus Christ defends his Sabbath healings.
John 5:1-15 — Jesus Christ does more Sabbath healing.
John 7:21-24 — Jesus Christ again defends his Sabbath healings.
John 9:1-34 — Jesus Christ does even more Sabbath healing.
Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 — he tells someone who wanted to bury his father “Let the dead bury the dead.” Is that supposed to be a joke?
Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 — he announces that he’s going to break up everybody’s families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him.
Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 — his real family is not his biological family but his followers.
Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 — he insists that his followers desert their biological families.
Matthew 23:9 — don’t call your human father your real father.
Luke 2:42-51 — he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. “Didn’t you know that I had to be in my Father’s house?” and he demonstrated how super-learned he was.
John 7:53-8:11 — he convinces some Pharisees that they had no right to punish someone caught for adultery, and she gets off with “don’t do that anymore”.
Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35 — he tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt.
In the canonical gospels, the closest he comes to murder is making some demon-possessed pigs stampede into a lake, and zapping a fig tree for not having figs when he wanted it to, even though it was out of season. In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, when he was a little boy, he zapped and killed another little boy for bumping into him.
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 8:28 AM
Dear I, Using scripture to prove Christ was not all that, referencing numerous occasions of his unseemly behavior found therein, strongly suggests your confidence in its accuarcy.
lpetrich · 02/15/2024 at 9:21 AM
Jesus Christ was also guilty of two of medieval Catholicism’s Seven Deadly Sins:
Sloth/Laziness – Though he had stated that he would make his Second Coming in the lifetimes of his listeners, he has failed to deliver on his promise.
Wrath/Anger – He foamed at the mouth at those who would not listen to him, and also at those scribes and Pharisees. He threw a temper tantrum at a certain figless fig tree and also at the merchants in the Jerusalem Temple.
Pride/Arrogance – Calling himself the Messiah, King of the Jews, and even God himself could qualify.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 8:07 PM
Sloth/Laziness – Though he had stated that he would make his Second Coming in the lifetimes of his listeners, he has failed to deliver on his promise.
I know He was lazy, but can you tell me when he said he would make his second coming in the lifetimes of his listeners?
Wrath/Anger – He foamed at the mouth at those who would not listen to him,
Real foam? Wow! He was a bad boy, ain’t?
and also at those scribes and Pharisees. He threw a temper tantrum at a certain figless fig tree and also at the merchants in the Jerusalem Temple.
Imagine!
Pride/Arrogance – Calling himself the Messiah, King of the Jews, and even God himself could qualify.
Well that’s it. I was considering giving him a pass for being a snotty kid, but for calling himself the Son of Man and King? That’s it. Who did he think he was, Jesus?
Thanks much. You saved me from waisting the limited time I have left on some NutJob from back in the day.
lpetrich · 02/15/2024 at 9:30 AM
The Real Ten Commandments – Richard Carrier
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/carrier2.html
From Athenian reformer Solon, according to Diogenes Laertius’s “Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers”. Jesus Christ violated some of those ones:
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made – he withdrew himself from public view after his crucifixion, appearing only to his closest followers after his resurrection, and he abandoned even those people outright by rising up into Heaven.
7. Make reason your supreme commander – he never celebrated reason as good to use, and he’d sometimes throw temper tantrums (in the Jerusalem Temple – Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, Luke 19:45-46, John 2:13-16 – and at a certain fig tree – Matt 21:18-19, Mark 11:12-14).
lpetrich · 02/15/2024 at 9:43 AM
Of the Buddha’s Five Precepts, he violated some, like
5. Do not consume anything intoxicating – JC was known as a wine-drinker (Luke 7:34), and he was described as miraculously turning water into wine for a wedding feast (John 2:1-11).
He has also violated some of the Negative Confession in the Egyptian Papyrus of Ani, like being angry for no good reason.
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 12:15 AM
He was born of a virgin.
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
mfm420 · 02/17/2024 at 6:47 AM
the fact you christians shoot up synagogues all over america proves otherwise.
dude, give it up.
oh, and you guys can’t even figure out which 10 are the 10, and you don’t follow them anyways.
don’t lie is a big one, and you’ve been lying for 4 days straight.
take the L, you fail, just bail, oKKKay?
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 9:44 AM
Clinton frequently referred to Jesus as “our Saviour” and affirmed his belief in Jesus’s miracles and resurrection, “the central event” in the Christian history of salvation. Easter, he proclaimed, demonstrated that “good conquered evil, hope overcame despair, and life triumphed over death.” “God’s only Son,” Clinton declared, brought “the assurance of God’s love and presence in our lives and the promise of salvation.” Jesus is “ ‘the true Light’ that illumines all humankind.” Those who fed the hungry, cared for the sick, nurtured children, and promoted peace and justice reflected Christ’s light. Jesus’s “suffering, death, and rising from the dead” and “victory over sin and death” empowered those who believe in Him to overcome sin.
Why don’t atheists condemn and rally against Bill Clinton?
Omnicrom · 02/13/2024 at 2:17 PM
They do, especially for his Neo Liberal economic policies.
Why, pray tell, are you asking this question?
jfnavin · 02/13/2024 at 11:11 PM
Juanita Broaddrick
Omnicrom · 02/14/2024 at 12:49 AM
What about her? And by the way I would suggest you take the beam out of your own eye before going any further.
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 1:58 AM
A former professor from the University of Arkansas claimed Clinton had groped a female student and tried to trap her in his office when he was a professor. This would later be backed up by a piece written by Daniel Harris and Teresa Hampton, which alleged that students at the university confirmed that Clinton had tried to force himself on them when he was a professor
Eileen Wellstone
Paula Jones
Cristy Zercher
Sandra Allen James
Karen Hinton
Newsweek Edward Klein stated that Clinton was being accused of sexual assault by four women. The plaintiffs alleged that the assaults took place shortly after the end of his presidency in the early 2000s, while they were in their late teens. A member of Clinton’s legal team confirmed the existence of new allegations against Clinton
Leslie Millwee
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 1:59 AM
Would you prefer I not answer?
Eileen Wellstone
Paula Jones
Cristy Zercher
Sandra Allen James
Karen Hinton
Leslie Millwee
Omnicrom · 02/14/2024 at 2:42 AM
Duane Rollins
Samantha Killary
Colm O’Gorman
Olivier Savignac
Anne Marie Miller
Toby Twining
Brooks Schott
You going to remove the beam from your eye before going on about specks? And if you’d like to stop tilting at a strawman you can do that any time.
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 3:37 AM
I see. Thanks for your thoughts.
Omnicrom · 02/14/2024 at 12:46 PM
As much as I expected.
jfnavin · 02/16/2024 at 4:33 PM
I despise men who asault women, injure them and lie about it and get away with it. You do too, I’m sure.
Omnicrom · 02/16/2024 at 11:57 PM
I’m curious what all of this weird strawmanning accomplishes tbh.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 8:15 PM
Clinton got blasted much worse than trump. In fact, in no time after he bolted from office and paid Paula Jones 750K with funds he didn’t have, he repented and made a cool $100,000,000.00
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 7:14 AM
Because Bill, unlike say you, wasn’t so monomaniacally focused on forcing everybody else to follow his religion. Bill Clinton happily lives with a diversity of belief and non-belief.
It’s like you’re assuming that we atheists are just like you, that we automatically hate anybody who doesn’t 100% agree with us.
jfnavin · 02/15/2024 at 6:33 PM
Of the Buddha’s Five Precepts, he violated some, like
5. Do not consume anything intoxicating – JC was known as a wine-drinker (Luke 7:34), and he was described as miraculously turning water into wine for a wedding feast (John 2:1-11).
He has also violated some of the Negative Confession in the Egyptian Papyrus of Ani, like being angry for no good reason.
From Athenian reformer Solon, according to Diogenes Laertius’s “Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers”. Jesus Christ violated some of those ones:
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made – he withdrew himself from public view after his crucifixion, appearing only to his closest followers after his resurrection, and he abandoned even those people outright by rising up into Heaven.
7. Make reason your supreme commander – he never celebrated reason as good to use, and he’d sometimes throw temper tantrums (in the Jerusalem Temple – Matt 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, Luke 19:45-46, John 2:13-16 – and at a certain fig tree – Matt 21:18-19, Mark 11:12-14).
Jesus Christ was also guilty of two of medieval Catholicism’s Seven Deadly Sins:
Sloth/Laziness – Though he had stated that he would make his Second Coming in the lifetimes of his listeners, he has failed to deliver on his promise.
Wrath/Anger – He foamed at the mouth at those who would not listen to him, and also at those scribes and Pharisees. He threw a temper tantrum at a certain figless fig tree and also at the merchants in the Jerusalem Temple.
Pride/Arrogance – Calling himself the Messiah, King of the Jews, and even God himself could qualify.
There are two sets of “Ten Commandments” in the Bible, the well-known Exodus-20/Deuteronomy-5 version and the Exodus-34 one. He violated several of them and urged his followers to do likewise, violations like working on the Sabbath, showing disrespect to one’s parents, obstructing justice in an adultery case, stealing, and according to one noncanonical Gospel, murdering.
Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11 — Jesus Christ defends his disciples’ plucking grain on a Sabbath; he also heals someone in that Sabbath.
Luke 13:10-17 — Jesus Christ again heals someone on a Sabbath.
Luke 14:1-6 — Jesus Christ defends his Sabbath healings.
John 5:1-15 — Jesus Christ does more Sabbath healing.
John 7:21-24 — Jesus Christ again defends his Sabbath healings.
John 9:1-34 — Jesus Christ does even more Sabbath healing.
Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62 — he tells someone who wanted to bury his father “Let the dead bury the dead.” Is that supposed to be a joke?
Matthew 10:34-37, Luke 12:51-53, Luke 14:26 — he announces that he’s going to break up everybody’s families, and that anyone who prefers their families to him are unworthy of him.
Matthew 12:46-48, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21 — his real family is not his biological family but his followers.
Matthew 19:29, Luke 18:29-30 — he insists that his followers desert their biological families.
Matthew 23:9 — don’t call your human father your real father.
Luke 2:42-51 — he was very snotty to his parents. As a boy, he and his parents used to visit the Jerusalem Temple, and one time, he studied with the scholars there and forgot about his parents. And when they find him, he was not the least bit apologetic. “Didn’t you know that I had to be in my Father’s house?” and he demonstrated how super-learned he was.
John 7:53-8:11 — he convinces some Pharisees that they had no right to punish someone caught for adultery, and she gets off with “don’t do that anymore”.
Matthew 21:1-7, Mark 11:1-7, Luke 19:29-35 — he tells his followers to steal a donkey and a colt.
In the canonical gospels, the closest he comes to murder is making some demon-possessed pigs stampede into a lake, and zapping a fig tree for not having figs when he wanted it to, even though it was out of season. In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, when he was a little boy, he zapped and killed another little boy for bumping into him.
I am particularly distressed to learn that He not only wasn’t perfect, as many claimed, He was in fact, I hate to repeat this, He was snotty to his parents! Like getting hit over the head with a baseball bat, I am devastated. Listen, do you fellas have room for 1 more atheist over there?
Omnicrom · 02/15/2024 at 11:58 PM
Is there a point to this tangle of words?
jfnavin · 02/16/2024 at 4:10 PM
Surely you get it.
Omnicrom · 02/16/2024 at 9:29 PM
Nope, can’t say I do.
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 12:31 AM
I am delighted to find you relying on scripture to demonstrate that He lived and we have words He spoke.
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 12:53 AM
John 9:1-34 — Jesus Christ does even more Sabbath healing.
Normal people don’t walk around healing people. The Pharasees were enraged. You can’t save somone on a holy day. What’s wrong thiis cat?
Didn’t Jesus say, if your ass falls into a ditch, you pull it out don’t you? These guys were thick as a brick
ATCoffey · 02/15/2024 at 11:32 PM
I still have an extensive collection of Chick tracts, comic books, and some other materials I picked up in the wild and others given to me. My favorite remains, ‘The Death Cookie.’ It is so tied into the Fundagelical obsession with single source causation, rather than any kind of change and development in the organization over time — in other words reality.
Thanks for sharing about the secretive and creepy Jack Chick and his tracts.
ATCoffey · 02/15/2024 at 11:37 PM
Jnavin, seems to be doing the opposite of love bombing with endless explanations and begging the question. I’m not sure what I’d call that.
jfnavin · 02/16/2024 at 4:40 AM
Clinton lied. He turned his back on a million blacks. They were butchered, slaughtered. They begged him for help. Pleaded. He said he didn’t know. He DID know. FOIA requests/documents reveal he lied, repeatedly. Said he regretted not acting sooner. He did nothing. Didn’t lift a finger. Didn’t ask the UN to send in Peacekeepers.
Omnicrom · 02/16/2024 at 9:31 PM
Who are you voting for in November?
jfnavin · 02/17/2024 at 8:08 AM
How an impromptu NFL prayer huddle for Damar Hamlin brought us
The Jacksonville Jaguars and Tennessee Titans teams gather midfield to pray for Damar Hamlin before an NFL football game, Saturday, Jan. 7, 2023, in Jacksonville, Fla.
A life-shattering incident on Jan. 2 involving Buffalo Bills NFL player Damar Hamlin toppled us into a world of anxiety.
that crowd of hefty professional players as they gathered on the field to pray, with thousands, perhaps millions following their lead.
Isn’t that the way? Regardless of intellect, business success, social status or other worldly achievements — when life hits us in the chest, it brings us to our knees. In today’s divided and hostile world, the humility and poured-out love in that moment was, in itself, a miracle.
How quickly I forget that each of us is so important unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Omnicrom · 02/17/2024 at 2:31 PM
I note you aren’t answering my question.
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 7:19 AM
What does this meaningless bullshit have to do with anything?
The performative prayer you describe was a bunch of men wanting to be seen to be doing something without having to do anything.
mfm420 · 02/17/2024 at 6:51 AM
trump lied, he turned his back on millions of blacks and jews.
seriously dude, you are the reason why people hate christians.
say asshole (i can call you that cause you are one), if your cult cared about helping people, how come it wasted 20 million dollars on super bowl ads?
you morons could have helped plenty of people with that cash,
instead, you guys jacked off in front of 100 million people.
you are why i love the fact christian flu (covid) and drugs has killed so many of your tribe, and your new god trump just got slaughtered today for 400 million dollars.
where’s your god now?
mfm420 · 02/17/2024 at 6:58 AM
you forgot one for the list:
if you’re into pornos and sex with your children, check out “lisa”
actually, don’t.
if you don’t know it, it’s pretty much the only one pulled, and yeah, anyone who has ever been abused will be triggered by it.
the sick bastard decided porn use is what leads to child rape.
funny, churches ban porn, yet child rape happens among their tribe 10000000000 times more than in the world.
shoot, i’ve watched more of it than probably anyone who’s posted or will post, number of rapes committed: zero
number of children touched, images or videos of them looked at? also zero
weird, since as a godless liberal, according to jack (and the jackoff who spammed the comment section with 65 comments), we’re the ones doing all of that.
really is true:
anything a christian accuses others of is always a confession (doesn’t bode well for jfnavin, just saying)
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 7:22 AM
Plus he though the best cure for the trauma of being abused was daddy superficially converting to christianity while probably continuing the abuse (as nothing had been done to change the father’s behaviour). I would be very much surprised if Chick didn’t blame the victims in sex abuse cases.
Camasonian · 02/17/2024 at 10:52 PM
There is an old adage in fishing. Namely that fishing lures are designed to catch the FISHERMAN not the FISH.
Seems to apply here as well.
jfnavin · 02/18/2024 at 8:44 PM
One person said that the rebirth in Christ isn’t real. The rebirth in Christ changes people for the better, often dramatically, so that claim is not true. She said that nothing in the New Testament is true. To say that nothing in the NT is of historic accuracy is something she cannot know with certainity, so that too is an incorrect statement.
Brian Shanahan · 02/24/2024 at 1:43 AM
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the child rape tract. That one was horrific.
I think I only ever saw one in the wild back in the day over here. Ireland does have it’s brands of crazy fundies both catlick (see Opus Dei or Lolel Ltd. t/a the Ionanist Institute) and protestant (mostly dissenter, see the Burke family or Ian Paisley) but thankfully Chick never made a splash.
Timperator of Mankind · 03/02/2024 at 1:57 AM
I’ve made it a matter of Timperial doctrine that whenever I find tract evangelism in the wild I collect as much as I can find and roundfile it all.