Conservative Christians definitely have firm opinions about Ron DeSantis. Unfortunately, those opinions vary quite a bit. Some love him. Others despise him and instead idolize Donald Trump. On social media, both groups invoke divine authority to bolster their claims about their respective political choice.
I’ve seen these Christians make this exact claim for years. In their end of Christianity, it’s a common argument tactic. Let me show you what the claim involves, why it’s made, and what it tells us about conservative Christians as a group in 2024.
The appeal to authority, defined
Conservative Christians are a restive lot. The group includes hardline Catholics, evangelicals, Mormons, and other such deeply authoritarian Christians—who all absolutely despised each other until very recently. But in their politics and culture-war stances, they are nearly identical and indistinguishable. Greedy opportunism brought them together when even Jesus’ direct demands for unity and brotherhood could not.
They’re alike in another way, too: Their argument tactics.
In debate and argument, an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. In other words, its structure is simply invalid. It fails right out of the gate to support the arguer’s premise. Here’s how this fallacy goes most of the time:
- Observation of some kind.
- A claim about the observation.
- Declaring that some authority figure agrees with this assertion.
- Therefore, assertion must be true.
If that authority figure even exists and agrees with the claim in question, the arguer offers no reason for us to take that agreement as a fact. The authority figure could be wrong, after all. We still need valid, objective support for the claim.
Somehow, conservative Christians missed that logic class. For decades, they’ve been using Jesus as a trump card (pun not intended). Everyone must agree with their quirky li’l take on culture wars and theology alike because Jesus agrees with them. So if others disagree, then they are disagreeing with Jesus Christ himself.
(Spoiler: There’s only one penalty for disagreeing with Jesus, and that’s Hell.)
And when it comes to politics, these Christians just can’t resist using their very favorite logical fallacy.
How the appeal to authority works with the DeSantis vs Trump squabble
Obviously, right now Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump are battling for the Republican nomination for President. Both men run as Republicans. Both have experience in various forms of government. And both are absolutely shameless in their pandering to conservative Christians.
So we have Trump’s fanbase declaring that he is Jesus’ very own favorite hand-picked candidate, and the only one Jesus has designated. As Jesus’ very own candidate, only Trump can bring America back under conservative Christian control.
The person tweeting the following isn’t part of the squabble, just a good observer of it:

Here, Ron Filipkowski refers to a campaign ad for Donald Trump. And oh boy, is there a story to be told here.
Back in 1978, radio star Paul Harvey wrote a speech called “So God Made a Farmer.” If you’re American, you’ve likely heard at least parts of it before. Here’s some of it:
And on the 8th day, God looked down on his planned paradise and said, “I need a caretaker.” So God made a farmer.
God said, “I need somebody willing to get up before dawn, milk cows, work all day in the fields, milk cows again, eat supper, then go to town and stay past midnight at a meeting of the school board.” So God made a farmer.
“I need somebody with arms strong enough to rustle a calf and yet gentle enough to deliver his own grandchild; somebody to call hogs, tame cantankerous machinery, come home hungry, have to wait lunch until his wife’s done feeding visiting ladies, then tell the ladies to be sure and come back real soon — and mean it.” So God made a farmer.
“So God Made a Farmer,” Paul Harvey. Transcript courtesy of American Rhetoric. (archive)
It’s a truly iconic speech, one that stirs the heart of any American who longs for a simpler, perhaps more rural and community focused life.
In 2012, Dodge used a recording of Harvey giving his speech for a Super Bowl ad about their pickup trucks.
Naturally, both DeSantis and Trump have riffed on this iconic speech.
When two candidates both want Jesus’ endorsement
Released in early November 2022, DeSantis’ ad tells us that on the 8th day, the Christian god “made a fighter.” DeSantis, naturally, is that very fighter.
Axios tells us that in a sparse 96 seconds, this ad manages to invoke the Christian god ten times. Among other assertions, this is what the ad claims the god of the entire universe did to rescue the tiny inhabitants of one country out of hundreds on one planet out of many millions from one galaxy out of billions:
“And on the eighth day,” a deep voice thunders, “God looked down on his planned paradise and said: ‘I need a protector.’ So God made a fighter.”
“God said: ‘I need somebody who will take the arrows, stand firm in the face of unrelenting attacks, look a mother in the eyes and tell her that her child will be in school.’ So God made a fighter.”
“Ron DeSantis’ “God ad” invokes God 10 times in 96 seconds,” Axios, November 5, 2022 (archive)
About two weeks ago, Trump’s campaign posted “God Made Trump” to Trump’s official Truth Social account. This appalling video must be seen to be believed. In it, a deep male voice begins:
And on June 14, 1946, God looked down on his planned paradise and said, “I need a caretaker.” So God gave us Trump.
“GOD MADE TRUMP,” from Donald Trump’s official Truth Social account. January 5, 2024. (video archive)
The video has one of the Trump nepo babies suggesting that his dad “make America great again.” It concludes by promising that Trump will totally drill for oil (in National Parks, presumably) and magically “bring back American manufacturing and jobs” — all, of course, finished before “attending church on Sunday.”
DeSantis’ ad is a bad look. But this? This is ludicrous. Just a few years ago, Trump’s video would have been understood as truly scathing satire. The people who made it, the Dilley 300 Meme Team (archive), might have meant for it to be satire. They call themselves “Trump’s War Machine,” but that doesn’t mean anything these days. Whatever its creators intended, Trump’s team obviously took it as a serious effort that would help him win nomination and then election in 2024.
I couldn’t move on from this topic without mentioning the brilliant recent Lincoln Project riff on “God Made Trump.” Everyone, enjoy “God Made a Dictator.”
Conservative Christians and their tribalism on parade
These other Tweeters look like true believers in Trump. I checked their profiles to try to ensure they’re actual conservative Christians. I don’t think I ended up with any secret Trump operatives.

This next one is so excited about her idol winning the nomination that she’s completely forgotten all that boring stuff Jesus told her to do—like forgive anyone who offends her no matter how terrible the offense might have been:

And this one’s so excited that she’s refusing to pray for her enemies’ health and family. That’ll show ’em! Sure, it’s completely hypocritical. But we’re talking about real life here, not a Jesus-flavored episode of The Care Bears.

Of course, Ron DeSantis has his own very excitable conservative Christian fans. This next one uses some interesting Christianese, “a servant’s heart.”

Gov. Kim Reynolds: “We need somebody that has a servant’s heart, that believes in this country and the goodness of it, that believes it can be restored.”
One sees “a servant’s heart” most often in evangelicalism, There, it describes someone who consistently puts others’ needs ahead of their own (archive). Evangelicals love to imagine that their leaders are actually totally the loving and obedient servants of their followers. (In truth, few evangelical leaders are like that.) So in the above quote, Kim Reynolds dogwhistles to evangelicals, telling them that DeSantis is 100% one of them and will 100% do everything he can to regain evangelical control over America.
Our next guy mentions that “God Made Trump” ad. He does it to point out the arrogance of comparing oneself so closely to Jesus Christ, which DeSantis obviously would never, ever do—despite having done that strikingly-similar “God Made a Fighter” video in 2022.

An aside: Over at Truth Social, it’s wall-to-wall Trump slobber
I had to laugh when I ventured onto Truth Social. That’s Donald Trump’s very own social media platform. He started it when he got kicked off Facebook and Twitter in 2021 (archive). As you might imagine given that history, Truth Social’s users unanimously favor Trump. I saw zero DeSantis praise.
The evangelicals there make some truly incredible claims about their idol. Here, someone calls Trump “Gods David” and warns that “you can’t compete against God.”

I also found someone referring to some group as “Satanists.” It’s possible that the poster means liberals or Democrats. On Truth Social, nobody feels the need to elaborate further. If someone doesn’t already know who “all the right Satanists” are, they don’t belong on Truth Social in the first place.

Incidentally, I found that exact same “all the right Satanists” wording in a dozen other Truth Social posts. It’s possible that some or all of the accounts involved are astroturfed, which means they might be run by Trump’s own election team pretending to be regular people.
I didn’t check Telegram because I don’t have an account there. But I don’t expect it to look much different from Truth Social, given the alt-right underpinnings of the place. Interestingly, Facebook didn’t contain much evangelical Trump or DeSantis virtue signaling at all, at least that I could find. No, the real fun is found on Twitter.
Why conservative Christians use the appeal to authority so often
Long ago when I was Pentecostal, I noticed that my peers and churchmates often stated that Jesus himself had ordered them to do this-or-that. It didn’t matter if we were talking about starting a Jiffy Lube in Nebraska, becoming a long-term missionary to some Southeast Asian country that the aspiring missionary couldn’t even identify on a map, marrying a particular person, or jockeying for a more powerful position on the church choir.
Every single time, the person wanting to do the thing claimed that Jesus had ordered them to do it.
Really, Jesus sure had a lot of opinions about who should have been doing what! Sure, he didn’t want to fix congenital deformities, juvenile cancer, partner violence, global starvation and poverty, or terminal diseases. But if you just wanted someone to command that you propose to the prettiest, sweetest girl in your church, Jesus was 100% your guy!
Evangelicals in particular understand that “because I want to do the thing” isn’t enough in their tribe. Their leaders teach that if Jesus isn’t behind the effort, it will fail without doubt or questions.
The thing might still fail even with Jesus’ endorsement, of course. Jesus is a real dillweed that way! But if the thing doesn’t work out, the failure can be blamed on humans doing the thing wrong. Somehow.
What happens when DeSantis and Trump fans can’t win through appeals to authority
If one evangelical claims that Jesus told them to try out for the high school football team, and another is trying out for the same position and claiming the same exact thing, evangelicals in general have a problem, however.
Some years back, a good number of prospective Republican candidates found themselves in this exact situation (archive). A half dozen prospective candidates for the 2016 Republican nomination all claimed that Jesus had told them to run for office. Every one of them told conservative Christian voters about the depth of their faith in Jesus and their rock-solid convictions. In 2015, this blatant pandering and virtue signaling went to ridiculous lengths:
[Carly] Fiorina was more subdued, saying her faith was once “a little abstract” since “I came to think of God as a CEO of a big enterprise. He was in charge, but he couldn’t possibly know every little detail.”
But, she told the faithful, she later discovered that “each one of us can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.”
“God knows what’s going on in our lives,” she said, “and that personal relationship saw me through many hard times.”
“6 Republican 2016 Hopefuls Woo Faithful At Texas Megachurch,” CBS, October 18, 2015 (archive)
That article tells us that even Rick Santorum, a hardline Catholic, played the game that day by declaring himself an “evangelical Catholic.”
Obviously, however, only one person would secure the party’s nomination to run for President.
So had Jesus deliberately set the rest of the candidates to fail miserably for laughs? Or—and I know this might sound nutty—were these candidates falsely claiming divine endorsement just to make themselves sound more legitimate than the rest?
Trump and DeSantis keep trying to out-Jesus each other
Now, of course, the DeSantis team is trying to figure out what to do next. Trump won the recent Iowa caucus by a considerable amount. Various people are trying to blame various other people for the loss, while also alienating more potential allies in Republican politics.
What I’m not hearing is a reckoning with how Trump’s fanbase feels about him. He’s not just a politician to them. To them, he’s America’s literal savior. He’s the only one who can possibly right America’s rapidly-sinking star-spangled ship.
It’s going to be very hard for DeSantis to win over evangelicals in particular after they sounded Jewish shofar horns to celebrate Trump’s 2016 victory. They’ve declared since 2016 that Jesus specially sent King Cyrus (of Isaiah 45 fame) back to Earth, reincarnating him as Donald Trump for the express purpose of getting America back under evangelical control.
According to Washington Post (archive), evangelical leaders are still leaning hard on that kind of rhetoric. And why not? After the King Cyrus talk really got started, Trump’s share of white evangelical voters rose from 77% in 2016 to 84% in 2020.
I’m not sure any Republicans could ford such a river, but I do know DeSantis sure can’t
In addition to running a shockingly-inept nomination campaign, DeSantis hasn’t done much to establish himself as any particular reincarnated Old Testament figures arriving right at conservative Christians’ hour of greatest need.
Nor have I heard him daring to offer the sorts of over-the-top promises Trump spews nonstop to his rabid fanbase (archive).
That may be one of the biggest differences between the two men.
DeSantis tries to make himself sound like a humble Christian serving Americans because Jesus wants it that way. Trump, by contrast, acts like a temporarily deposed God-Emperor who wants his throne back right this minute.
Clearly, conservative Christians vastly prefer to identify with Trump’s God-Emperor act than with DeSantis’ more public-servant-like demeanor.
Even though they’re not the only voters in the Republican party, conservative Christians are still the biggest and most dependable bloc of Republican voters around. So expect the candidates’ pandering to get even worse between here and the final run-up to the Republican nomination.
107 Comments
Chris Peterson · 01/21/2024 at 12:23 PM
The End Times requires the Antichrist. DeSantis is clearly a false Antichrist. Trump is the real deal. So obviously Jesus would endorse him.
Artor · 01/21/2024 at 1:51 PM
Obviously.
Jörg · 01/21/2024 at 2:23 PM
Thanks for the article.
Jesus must be very busy in the USA. I have not heard of him publicly endorsing politicians over here in Germany.
Cassidy: “one planet out of many millions from one galaxy out of billions”
That is off by at least seven orders of magnitude:
https://phys.org/news/2016-10-planets-galaxy.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe
Captain Cassidy · 01/21/2024 at 5:31 PM
True!
Chris Peterson · 01/21/2024 at 5:38 PM
Or as my favorite professor in college so perfectly put it, “It doesn’t seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil – which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.” -Richard Feynman
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 1:19 AM
Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
BensNewLogIn · 01/23/2024 at 12:19 PM
a billion here, a billion there, i’m pretty soon, you’re actually talking about some real estate.
ericc · 01/21/2024 at 3:23 PM
I’m hoping Haley can get to 45% in New Hampshire and continue her run. Right now Trump is polling at 50% to her 40% so that’s a bit of a stretch, but I think she needs a good showing in NH and SC if she’s going to make it to March 5.
I expect Jesus would be as interested in talking about which of them would make the best president as he was in talking about who would make the best Roman prefect of Judea.
Chris Peterson · 01/21/2024 at 4:27 PM
Is anybody else a bit sick seeing the header image here, a couple of intelligent, dignified, impressive bull elephants symbolizing Trump and DeSantis?
ericc · 01/21/2024 at 4:49 PM
Nast created the symbol as a derisive insult to the Republicans who lost their House majority in 1874. As in: Republicans = stampeding towards the exit in fear of a jackass wearing a lionskin (Ulysses S. Grant).
While he was Republican by party affiliation, it’s worth remembering this was civil war Repulicanism: anti-KKK, pro-black, pro-Indian, pro-Immigrant (except Irish; he hated the Irish). And he hated corruption and supported Democratic candidates in at least one or two elections because he thought the Republican candidate was corrupt. He also regularly ticked off the editors of the newspapers he sent cartoons to (NYT and Harpers, I think) by opposing the papers’ official positions.
Given that, I expect that (a) he absolutely would have used an elephant to represent Trump and DeSantis, because that was ‘his’ symbol for the party and it’s voters, but (b) he would’ve had no problem depicting said elephants in a bad light.
Chris Peterson · 01/21/2024 at 4:56 PM
A cartoon elephant is one thing… but those in the image are not cartoonish at all!
(I find it insulting to Lincoln when modern Republicans claim to be the “party of Lincoln”, which is BS pure and simple. Lincoln was far more aligned with the thinking of modern Democrats, and would not be a Republican today.)
Captain Cassidy · 01/21/2024 at 5:32 PM
The Law of Unfair Comparisons strikes again. Some topics/people are so awful that any comparison will be unfair – to the standard used.
smrnda · 01/21/2024 at 4:42 PM
The whole ‘god made a farmer’ is about praising ‘ordinary’ seeming people – the idea of a farmer who actually works on a farm instead of someone who owns a farm and hires other people to do all the work. It just totally falls apart when it’s attached to an overprivileged nepo baby, especially when it’s made by his nepo baby kids.
jfnavin · 01/21/2024 at 6:32 PM
For our old folks – remember the LBJ political ad with a small girl counting the petals on a flower as she removed them? Her images freezes as a man’s voice takes over the count, “4, 3, 2, 1…” and in the background a mushroom cloud from a nuke fills the sky.
I remember when candidate Clinton was asked a question, surrounded by reporters. “Well, I haven’t had the time to adress that matter. All I’ve been doing is denying all the lies you all keep telling about Jen Flowers and me.” Paraphrased
jfnavin · 01/21/2024 at 6:39 PM
“Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail. Steal a lot and then they make you king.” Robert Zimmerman
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 5:30 AM
And how many people died in Vietnam during LBJ’s presidency ?
WCB · 01/25/2024 at 11:30 AM
Many. Of course LBJ did not start that war. He inherited it. But then we had Nixon and Kissinger. Who were worse. Such as bombing Cambodia. The war destroyed LBJ. Which is a shame. Without Vietnam, LBJ would have gone down in history as one of our greatest presidents.
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 4:28 PM
Do you enjoy Robert Caro? His volumes on LBJ are amazing. You can watch him on C-Span. Spent most of his adult life researching and writing about him.
What I am terrible at is just this: my point I was trying to make is that I don’t trust/believe that politicians have the answers.
WCB · 01/21/2024 at 6:39 PM
DeSantis just dropped out. End of that. Jesus would vote for Biden as the lesser of two evils. In the GOP it is Trump or Haley now. Shudder.
Chris Peterson · 01/21/2024 at 6:44 PM
That could be good, given that there appears to be a lot of Trump voters who won’t vote at all if Haley is the candidate, and a lot of Haley voters who prefer Biden to Trump. A lot rests on continued Republican fragmentation.
ericc · 01/22/2024 at 8:35 AM
Oh excellent. So GOPers now have a pretty stark choice, and the never-Trumpers don’t have the option of voting for a Trump policy clone.
I expect there are zero Republicans who would’ve voted for DeSantis because they liked Trump but thought DeSantis had a better chance in the general. All the ‘practical’ DeSantis pickers will now go to Haley (while all the ‘I like his right-wingedness’ DeSantis voters will now go to Trump).
He’s still the favorite, no question. But this may cut into his lead.
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 1:17 AM
“The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.” — Malcolm Muggeridge.
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 1:40 AM
Muggeridge believed that reaffirming a belief in human dignity at the very source of life was truly consistent with Mother Teresa’s care for those in later life – exemplified in her love for the derelict and the dying in the slums of Calcutta and elsewhere.
Muggeridge often recalled a scene recorded in the TV program, Something Beautiful for God. Mother Teresa was holding a baby girl in her hands – so tiny that her very existence seemed miraculous. She exclaimed, with a glowing and exalted expression on her face: “See! There’s life in her!” It was for Muggeridge a triumphant glorying in life – “a divine flame”, he said, “which no man dare presume to put out, be his motives never so humane and enlightened”.
He was likely the last person on eath to find inspiration in that tiny little bulldog of a womam, Mother Teresa, who gave away her life so that others might be comforted. Muggeridge had been a was cracking, sarcastic, intellectual, playboy, a Cambridge graduate hot shot who went around the world insulting England’s royalty, and developed a spiritual side, a compassionate side, as he observed Stalin’s brutality in Ukraine. He had been considering joining the communists until reality sunk in.
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 8:55 PM
How much energy is released in black hole collision?
In its final 20 ms of spiraling inward and merging, GW150914 released around 3 solar masses as gravitational energy, peaking at a rate of 3.6×1049 watts – more than the combined power of all light radiated by all the stars in the observable universe put together.
Forgive me. I may have posted this information before. It is just soooo amazing to me. Our universe is alive and active, changing, merging, burning, new stars forming.
2 big black holes collided a billion years ago. The energy released was so enormous it equaled the energy released to produce the light from every star in the universe and because it was so powerful, it shook the fabric of space-time which just made its way here and went through the earth, our sun and solar system and away it went.
The matter that makes up the universe is energy. We are not just electrons.protons/neutrons/quarks etc. We are the energy they contain.
Carstonio · 01/22/2024 at 9:45 AM
Conservative Christianity may seem like tribalism, but its core is patriarchy, often white patriarchy. Its ideal society is one controlled by wealthy white men, where even the poorest man is still unquestioned owner of his wife and children.
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 9:22 PM
There is no such thing. There are disciples of his who have conservative views, liberal views, moderate views, and combinations thereof. There are many more who can be labeled as :Conservative Christins: but that’s a misnomer. Most Christians are not Christians. We can, and you can, attach titles to anyone.
There are a handful of Christ’s disciples in the U.S. A true Christian loves Christ with all he/she is 24/7. A true, real disciple takes up his cross to follow intimately his savior. A true Christian forgives from his heart everyone who has ever harmed him for any reason. A true Christian resists hurtting others with everything he’s got. A true Christian loves his enemies. A true Christian loves others.
Don’t confuse the real deal with titles of some kind, you know? .
BensNewLogIn · 01/24/2024 at 12:58 PM
There are dozens, hundreds, thousands of varieties of true Christians, and there have been ever since the first querulous old man raised a shaking finger, pointed it at another querulous old man, and hissed the dreaded epithet: HERETIC!
sorry, but you guys have been calling yourselves true Christians and everyone else fake Christians for the last 2000 years. It should be a supreme bother to you that you even have to have the discussion, that your omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent God, infinite animator, creator and motivator of everything in the entire infinite universe…
Has so much trouble getting his message across. So much trouble that you have spent centuries murdering each other, when you weren’t murdering everyone else.
and why? For being the wrong sort of Christian, for not being a true Christian.
In my more than seven decades on the planet, the only people I have ever met that make the claim of being true Christians (TM) and calling other people fake, i.e., NOT true Christians (TM) are people that want to use their faith as a club and a weapon, as it means to their own personal power and wealth, and who are some of the worst people on earth.
In short, people who are about the farthest thing from being a true Christian — whatever that means this week, this year, this century – As they could possibly be.
Chris Peterson · 01/24/2024 at 3:28 PM
The massive death and destruction, the countless millions of deaths, the countless millions who have suffered because of Christianity are a consequence of a religion with a god so incompetent it could not provide clear instruction about its desires, resulting in those thousands of varieties of Christians, ready to vilify and kill all those who interpreted the ramblings of an insane god differently.
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 9:20 AM
You believe if God existed, and He knew what hell He was doing, man would be cool. IOW, you expect that man would respond perfectly to some god, if He wasn’t an idiot?
BensNewLogIn · 01/25/2024 at 12:46 PM
No, I believe that you just changed the subject from the failure of the Christian God, the omnipotent and omniscient infinite creator of the entire infinite universe, to make his wishes clear…
…to…
it’s all the fault of the people he created for their failure to understand him, and their desire to create True Christians (TM) and NOT True Christians (TM), where in the former think that the latter simply didn’t get what the former got.
But the true Christians get it, even though there have been dozens, hundreds, thousands of sects of true Christians for the last 2000 years, and you have been merrily murdering each other and everybody else over that.
I will give you a parallel example. I bought a thingummy from IKEA. The instructions to put it together were all in pictographs. I literally could not figure out what the pictographs meant, and I have three degrees, i am a photoshop whiz, And I am the go to guy among my friends technical issues with their computers.
But those pictographs are there because they are supposed to be a universal language by the manufacturers that everyone can understand. Except that I couldn’t understand them, my husband couldn’t understand them, and according to what I read online, other people couldn’t understand them either. Someone was kind enough to write down the instructions in English, and I put the thingummy together.
Now, you could argue that it was my failure to understand the clear instructions of the manufacturer. Or you could argue that the manufacturer, in order to save money, simply decided on the lack of clarity.
The Christian god doesn’t have that excuse.
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 4:23 PM
I agree He is hard to understand at times. Very hard.
For me, much harder to resist succumbing to that nice young lady who, with her eyes, invites me to come over tonight. I know what to do. But, it’s a killer.
BensNewLogIn · 01/26/2024 at 12:25 PM
And I must thank you for your agreement with me. The Christian God is hard to understand at times. Very hard.
And yet, you are absolutely certain that you understand him, because you know the difference between the true Christian and a not true Christian.
I have it!
Schrodinger’s God. Simultaneously impossible to understand and yet easy to understand, especially when you have the ability to assure yourself that you are a true Christian.
jfnavin · 01/26/2024 at 6:34 PM
Nah. He assures me. I understand him? He’s my friend, my companion, my God. I know He loves me, you and everyone. That much I know.
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 9:23 AM
You mean like Jesus? He was a rich, white, fat cat, whom everyone obeyed?
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 5:51 PM
He may never even have existed at all.
jfnavin · 01/27/2024 at 11:25 AM
But you know we don’t know what He said?
jfnavin · 01/27/2024 at 11:53 AM
Yet, you do know that I don’t have his religion?
OldManShadow · 01/22/2024 at 12:04 PM
From the words attributed to Jesus in the gospels, my personal guess as to what he would do about America’s election would be the following:
And from what I know about our conservative Evangelical communities, how they would respond to Jesus would be to kill him all over again.
ericc · 01/22/2024 at 1:02 PM
Washing the feet of trans people.
Parables about poor mexican immigrants instead of Samaritans.
And to stop picking on right-wingers for a moment, telling everyone to turn the other cheek to school attacks would probably be highly unpopular with just about everyone. Though I expect a small number of Quakers and Shakers would stick with him on that.
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 8:08 PM
After his resurrection from the dead, Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved him. He answered yes three times. Then Jesus told Peter how he would die—apparently by crucifixion. Peter wondered about how it would go with John. So he asked Jesus, “What about this man?” Jesus brushed off the question and said, “What is that to you? You follow me!”
What does that have to do with you? Follow me
Got to love these boobs, always looking to see who would be treated most favorably. Like when Mrs. Zebedee asked Christ, “Hey could you give my two knuckleheads the prefered spots when you become the Big Kahuna?”
It took them forever to learn what He was trying to teach them about his kingdom. “It is something inside of you. It is not the outside stuff that people, religious/non-religious, are all too obsessed with. If you and I are Chums, out from your gut will flow rivers of Love for everyone! Don’t you get it? How long have I been with you boys and you are still clueless!” And those idiots walked away ashamed saying to one another, “He don’t make semse. I thought He said I was gonna be Chairman of the Board. Yea, Me to, a 5 Star general. Yea! Me three, as the CEO of Ford, I should be Chair of the Joint Chiefs. (remember him? Bobby McNamara? Who pushed for the Nam War?)
What does He mean, Servant of all. First last, Last will be first. We gotta be like children to enter his kingdom? Listen up boys. I like Jesus and all, but He might be a little out there, you know? I mean, I like the miracles and the big crowds swooning over the guy, but taking up my own cross to follow him. Sup with him?”
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 9:59 AM
Just one little correction: These stories are in this book, you know, that contains different stories from way, way back, I mean like 1900 years to maybe 3000 years or more. See, this book contains all these stories about all these people in the past. We don’t know the names of the people who wrote them, or where they got their information from, but it is the truth, though. About the one that says Jesus told Peter something three times, you know the story I am talking about, well, that story is true, you know, like Bugs Bunny says, “It is true because it is a fact !”
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 4:57 PM
We don’t know the names of the people who wrote them
So?
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 5:49 PM
Don’t pretend you do not understand what I mean. You know I mean “legends” were created, repeated, embellished, changed, etc. By the time someone wrote a very brief summary of a summary of a summary of four sides of the story, it had nothing to do with the original anymore, if there was anything at the origin at all.
jfnavin · 01/26/2024 at 3:36 AM
How can you be sure?
“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.”
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/26/2024 at 6:47 AM
I think you need some help of the kind you are not going to find here.
jfnavin · 01/26/2024 at 6:16 PM
Is that your final answer?
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 7:41 PM
“For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Regarding “the Church, evangelicals, fundamentakists, Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Methodists, etc.”: On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ‘ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 9:24 AM
Don’t forget how that quote starts: “Do not wash your hands before you eat, it is ridiculous and serves no purpose. What does it matter? Diseases are caused by demons, you know. If you get Ebola, don’t worry, I will cast out the demons from your body.”
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 5:36 PM
HYMN 43
O Father high in heaven
Smile down upon your son
Who’s busy with his money games
His women and his gun
Oh, Jesus save me
And the unsung western hero
He killed an Indian or three
And then he made his name in Hollywood
To set the white man free
Oh, Jesus save me
If Jesus saves, well, he better save himself
From the gory glory seekers who use his name in death, aw!
Oh, Jesus save me
If Jesus saves, well, he better save himself
From the gory glory seekers who use his name in death
Oh, Jesus save me
Well, I saw him in the city
And on the mountains of the moon, hey
His cross was rather bloody, oh
And he could hardly roll his stone
Oh, Jesus save me
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 5:56 PM
Is that an answer to how Jesus was wrong about something as basic and simple as the benefits of washing you hands before you eat?
jfnavin · 01/26/2024 at 6:28 PM
It is fascinating to see these complaints about Christ and Christians, as if this generation is on to something new and big.
I grew up with these criticisms night and day. Dad was a Saul of Tarsus until his wife passed away, his health deteriorated and he could no longer maintain his residence which was beautiful. That is when he said, “Ok God/Jesus. I need your help.” A miracle
Chris Peterson · 01/26/2024 at 6:37 PM
While it is central to Christianity to play the victim, what we have here are not “complaints”. They are observations and issues subject to discussion. For those willing to discuss them, of course.
BensNewLogIn · 01/24/2024 at 1:07 PM
Interesting about that list. Coveting, envy, pride, and foolishness are at worst minor character faults, not something serious. Three of them have to do with sex. Three of them–murder, theft, and slander have to do with actually harming people. Wickedness and deceit are not defined.
nothing about abusive power. Nothing about sexual abuse. Nothing about sexual molestation. Nothing about trying to gain dominion over the lives of others. Nothing about political and religious tyranny. Nothing about persecuted others for existing and being different. Nothing about bigotry and prejudice hiding behind sincere religious belief. Nothing about having weapons of mass murder. Nothing about insisting that a woman should die so that a fetus could live another 30 minutes. Nothing about polluting the planet. Nothing about breeding and breeding and breeding and breeding until the whole world is in danger from the weight of people.
Not exactly what I would call moral blueprint.
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 4:53 PM
Not bad for a myth.
jfnavin · 01/27/2024 at 11:08 AM
He wasn’t giving an exhaustive list.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/22/2024 at 12:16 PM
If I understood anything when I read the Gospels, Jesus would say : “Who are these dirty goyim ? Has someone made them think they, too, could be saved ?”
jfnavin · 01/22/2024 at 8:18 PM
I know why you might think that, but look closer. What He did say was: give me, come to me, All you who are hurting, downtrodden, left out, abused, broken, ashamed, all you “losers”. I’m looking for you. I love you. Come to me and in me you shall find rest, and peace and self worth and forgiveness and wholeness.” Look at moms teresa. Don’t look at labels.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/23/2024 at 2:19 PM
And to you, I say, “Look again ! Open your eyes wide and take a good, hard look again.”
jfnavin · 01/24/2024 at 12:50 AM
Don’t you realize that He has nothing to do with thoe who claim to know him, when their lives reflect none of His characteristics?
The Farm of Hope in Costa Rica is a Christian evangelistic and discipleship program for mostly adult men with life-controlling issues which result in homelessness and addictions. We also give free equine therapy to children with disabilities. Our staff serves as intercultural missionaries as we strive to serve the Lord Jesus Christ bringing hope and…
Or the Oxford Group who brought Bill Wilson, during his third hospitalization for alcohol poisoning and addiction, the Message that delivered him? Who then spread hope for recovery to millions of alcoholics/drug addicts/over eaters and the children devastated by these illnesses. Where are you looking? Why would you think to look at politicians, the wealthy, and the middle classes, who are rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing?
HE came for the sick amd lame, the broken and the unwanted and many Disciples reach out to comfort them night and day.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 5:11 AM
Did someone say you were necessarily bad people because you are Christians ? Others in the world devote their entire lives to helping their fellow humans in the name of something that has nothing to do with Jesus. Their love and caring are no different. There are just as many good people among non-Christians in the world than there are among you. In fact, I would wager that atheists are more loving and caring than average because they generally have a higher level of education.
What I am trying to tell you is that what you think of as Christianity is “your” religion, not the religion of Jesus. You made it up yourself, or at least someone made it for you from elements that are foreign or absent in the religion of Jesus. When the Gospels say Jesus said to love your enemy, if he said it at all, which I don’t believe he did, the whole context makes it obvious he would have meant “love your fellow members of the sect” not love everyone i the world. This call to love and unity is common to all revolutionary movements and/or oppressed people in the history of man. Compare, for example, Malcolm X and MLK. Do you think Malcolm X said to hate each other ? Why do black people call each other “brother” and “sister” in the US but not in Africa ? Because in the US they are oppressed by a power that is outside of their community. Same as the Jews under Roman oppression.
jfnavin · 01/24/2024 at 11:44 AM
Loved Malcolm. What a man. He was amazing. His autobiography is one of my favorite books.
Amen. People of all kinds of beliefs or a lack thereof love and care about others! It is the best thing.
“Good”. I am not good or close to it. I am a better human being than I was without Him, but good? Nah. I want to be good, to care for others unselfisly, as do many who don’t believe in or care about Christ. It isn’t a contest. Most of us do the best we can.
I found the miraculous in him. No one else has to. It is all about our own choices, you know. He doesn’t stand on anyone’s neck, demanding allegiance. I am sure my religion or my take on Jesus is my own. How cool is that? He Is My God. Everyone is entitled to have his/her own God. It isn’t up to me what others believe. It is ok for me to share what my God is like to me and to be excited about him. We all are free. “Each to his own way, I don’t mind. Best of luck with what you find.” I want the best for people. I cannot know what is best for you. I have opinions, but I don’t know.
Everyone must be free to make up his own mind, I think.
jfnavin · 01/24/2024 at 9:31 PM
“You made it up yourself, or at least someone made it for you from elements that are foreign or absent in the religion of Jesus.”
How do you know? What is the religion of Jesus?
jfnavin · 01/25/2024 at 4:05 PM
Did someone say you were necessarily bad people because you are Christians ?
Seems that way. Has anyone said anything good about us here?
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 5:46 PM
The word “necessarily” is important in my post.
jfnavin · 01/27/2024 at 11:46 AM
“You made it up yourself, or at least someone made it for you from elements that are foreign or absent in the religion of Jesus.”
You don’t know if He lived.
How can you know what his religion is? .
John Nutt · 01/23/2024 at 7:29 PM
Tell it to the the malignant narcissist Donald Trump, and his hate mongering “christian” followers.
Astrin Ymris · 01/24/2024 at 12:55 AM
Um, if you want to discuss liberal Christianity, an atheist site is not really the best place to do this. May I suggest this site instead?
https://sojo.net/magazine/current
jfnavin · 01/24/2024 at 11:59 AM
Thanks for the link. I’m not sure what you mean by not the best place. M.L. Clarke hasn’t told me I’m not wanted here, yet. Are you saying I am not allowed to comment here?
My account was missing today. I made several attempts to log in by following directions to obtain a new password. As I kept failing, I wondered if OnlySky banned me. I don’t want to be a nuisance. I have found the discussion exciting.
I ask that if I’m not sticking to the OS guidelines to let me know, please.
John Nutt · 01/24/2024 at 12:22 PM
You are allowed to comment on here, but for the love of God stay on topic, and stop going on weird ranty tangents!
You stick to that and you won’t get banned, and people may be willing to engage with you, and be polite and civil when going so.
John Nutt · 01/23/2024 at 8:24 AM
Wouldn’t he say “My kingdom is not of this world, but MAGA”?!
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/23/2024 at 2:21 PM
He might say, “I see an impostor has already usurped my throne in your country.”
John Nutt · 01/23/2024 at 7:43 PM
Christians believe (or it’s a common Christian belief) that God appoints political leaders, and for this reason they must be obeyed. Indeed following this line of reasoning I’ve seen Christians argue that Hitler was a righteous leader, appointed by God to inflict a divine punishment on the Jews.
Maybe it’s the turn of America?
“Give to Trump what is Trump’s’, and to God what is God’s.”
WCB · 01/25/2024 at 1:30 PM
Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
And then there was a big change in plans. This is what Christians call the Great Commission.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 5:41 PM
Matthew 10 : “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near. […] Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you….”
What do they make of the above?
Astrin Ymris · 01/24/2024 at 1:14 AM
OT: During the Evangelical Adoption Crusade, two families were both convinced that God wanted them to adopt the same Eastern European orphan, and got quite wroth with each other for planning to adopt “their” child. It was almost funny; both families were trying to adopt in the first place because they wanted to rescue an unwanted child, so you’d think they’d be happy that one set of parents was now free to rescue another unwanted child by adopting them. But no, they were quite indignant that someone was trying to poach their orphan.
jfnavin · 01/24/2024 at 12:16 PM
God, or my claim to know him, can be used as a weapon. I’m a bit surprised how that phenomenon isn’t understood or recognised as a given. I can use religion as an excuse to kill. People have and do. That has nothing to do with him, but it hasn’t stopped that approach. Blaming God for my attempts to manipulate others through feigning devotion to him is an old trick. Even when I was a million miles from God, I could see how people played that card.
jfnavin · 01/24/2024 at 11:04 AM
He refused the swell of support for him to seize power. The Kingdom of God is within you. The Kingdom He desired for us concerns the wholeness of our hearts. Look at the birds? Doesn’t God take care of them?
“Don’t you think God gets pissed off everytime we walk by a field of purple flowers and we don’t thank him?”—paraphrased from the movie “The Color Purple”
It is about Him living within us. He came to set us free from ego, self-hatred, jealousy, hatred for others, to help us to forgive others and ourselves and Him. He came to bring God into our lives, literally! To as many as received him, to them He gavethe power to become the children of God.
Dylan said, “Many try to stop me, shake me up in my mind / Say, “Prove to me that He is Lord, show me a sign” / What kind of sign do they need when it all comes from within”it’s all about what goes on on the inside.Tull wrote, Sitting in the corner and I can’t be sad. That was the best cup of coffee I ever had. And I won’t worry bout a thing here on the inside, outside’s so far away.
Seinfeld proved in episode after episode that money, things, status, achievement, no matter how much or how little we gain, we can still be miserable over the most trifling things. Riotously funny.
I had no idea how good, how fulfilling, how wonderful it felt deep inside to show love for others, regardless who they were or what they’d done. Their externals were just that. Seeing others through God’s eyes I saw a person of infinite worth. I was shocked by this. I had no idea that I would ever know an experience like that, and repeated continuously, no matter where I went or what I was doing. The ticket taker. The cashier. The woman in a wheelchair. The mechanic drinking a coke. A new born baby! Me noticing and caring about a new born baby! Brings tears to my eyes. All of us are incredibly important and worthy of love. All of us! And to the extent that we haven’t received the love we needed and were created to bask in, we are wounded. And wounds hurt, and I ran from pain and did all kinds of sick things out of that hurt. I think most of us hurt others out of our own pain, often unaware what is driving us. Jesus comes in with such overwhelming love that we can bring it to everyone and know what it’s like to live life abundantly. More than i ever dreamed of. I never imagined that life could be so beautiful.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 5:38 PM
What you are doing here is keep repeating the same inanities everyone knows but does not believe. Do you think that by repeating them over and over again, you are going to convince anyone here? You are saying: “You don’t believe that Jesus is the answer? OK, let me give some solid arguments: Jesus is the answer ! Got it this time, or should I repeat it once more?” I am not sure it is respectful to keep repeating the same things with no arguments as if the problem were that no one here understands them. Meanwhile you ignore the arguments given to you, At some level it is an insult to the intelligence of the commenters here. If you present some arguments that merit consideration, then go ahead and give them, otherwise, repeating the same stuff just gets tiring.
Chris Peterson · 01/24/2024 at 7:13 PM
Behavior fully explained by the colloquial definition of “insanity”.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 7:25 PM
I wonder if he/she realizes that the message that comes across is that if we don’t believe, it is because we do not understand, maybe because we are just too stupid or too stubborn or arrogant to try to understand.
Chris Peterson · 01/24/2024 at 7:37 PM
As I noted elsewhere, this is clearly a person with problems. Asking what he “realizes” is probably not meaningful.
M L Clark · 01/24/2024 at 7:51 PM
JFNavin seems like the type to be receptive to corrective nudges like the ones you and John Nutt have offered. Last week he popped onto a couple of my older works (a piece about how atheists can support suffering theists, and another suggesting that atheists should knock off trying to shame unkind Christians by calling their conduct “un-Christ-like” when Biblical Christ is given to say and do many unkind things).
At first, his posts were just mass quote-dumping from apologetics, but when I pointed out that this posting style isn’t conducive to a conversation, and thanked him for the part of his message that focused on *his* thoughts, he adjusted his posting style.
In our subsequent chat, it became clear that he doesn’t have much exposure to the history of the Bible’s construction, or surrounding histories of literature and the era, and he might not have read the whole Bible himself. His focus was instead on the joy he’s feeling now that he’s been made new in Christ through a personal relationship / direct conversion, and he’s eager to share that joy with others – but he also openly acknowledged that he struggles to communicate his experience well, in part because he doesn’t have the same sort of studied background as many.
So – not malicious, just deeply sensitive to discussions about the negative side of Christianity and Biblical Christ, when he feels so deeply thankful for what he feels his faith has done for him. From his posts here, it’s clear that he’s still learning that when atheists talk about the problems with faith, we’re not intrinsically saying that everyone who believes is a bad person. But I don’t think he’s had much experience with our type up to this point!
In any case: you folks are doing a great job letting him know how to have a better conversation! But I thought a little background to his fervour here might contextualize things a bit. Cheers!
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 8:11 PM
Thanks for the clarification. What you say makes a lot of sense. This person needs to learn first of all that making you feel good is not the main role of religion.
Chris Peterson · 01/24/2024 at 8:14 PM
Are you sure about that? 😉
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 8:25 PM
I am not talking from the viewpoint of many Christian people. Lots of people nowadays see it that way, because under capitalism religion has lost its coercive and punitive powers, and has become a product on the market subject to competition like any other product, but in times closer to the founders of religions, they were coercive and punitive. They did not suggest, they ordered and if you did not obey, they could have you killed. Even nowadays, Catholicism clearly wants you to feel guilty and contrite, doesn’t it?
Chris Peterson · 01/24/2024 at 8:45 PM
Understood. But I think they play to the same biological reward/punishment system that addictions do. In a very real sense, they do work by “making you feel good”.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 8:50 PM
But is that the main objective of religion?
Chris Peterson · 01/25/2024 at 12:22 AM
Well, outside (maybe) of the very earliest, most primitive religions, I’d say their objective is social/political control. A powerful tool that exploits inherent biases and intellectual failures in human beings that alphas have refined over millennia to keep everyone else under control. And a big part works by playing to pleasure/pain/fear pathways.
The “objective” of religion is one thing to the priests, another to the flock.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 10:56 AM
That is exactly what I was trying to express.
Chris Peterson · 01/25/2024 at 11:11 AM
And I don’t disagree. But I think we need to separate “how they work” from “what is their objective”.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 11:18 AM
And I realize this commenter falls under the category of “how they work”.
M L Clark · 01/24/2024 at 8:48 PM
It’s an interesting point, Rick. However, there’s a lot of political value to people being inwardly focused by religious faith – even in joy. A person wrapped up in their story of transformation in Christ, and in the affirmation of other people’s conversion tales, is certainly not someone being encouraged to spend much time thinking critically or at length about broader sociopolitical issues.
You can use the “carrot” as much as the “stick”, in other words, to cultivate whole congregations that will happily vote the way their church leaders want them to, without putting much independent thought into it, just so they can get back quickly to the rapturous joy of being saved.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 9:08 PM
I understand the way religion makes one feel is important – to them – because it no longer has the power to coerce them to stay, so it has to have some kind of attraction to them, otherwise they will abandon it or not be attracted to it in the first place. But did – or would Jesus – try to convince people to follow him because it would make them feel good? I think he would – and did – tell them they had better obey his Father’s commands, not decide whether they like them.
Besides, I wonder what kind of “good” religion makes one feel. I have been an atheist for over 50 years, so I cannot imagine.
M L Clark · 01/24/2024 at 9:26 PM
I agree that Biblical Christ is depicted as extremely demanding with respect to what people must do to follow him. Some forms of Christianity today pay close attention to the verses that make a life in Christ so demanding and divisive, while more liberal forms do not.
“Besides, I wonder what kind of “good” religion makes one feel. I have been an atheist for over 50 years, so I cannot imagine.”
I grew up secular, so I never had a church community, but I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that we’re all the same biochemical critters, more or less.
Have you ever been around someone gushing about their new grandchild, pet, or celebrity crush without end? Someone so eager to share all the photos and stories they have of them – and utterly bewildered when others don’t feel as enamoured by that same being?
Same biochemical relationship – but here applied to the pleasure one gets from the ritual of being with a given community a few times a week, or of feeling like part of something larger than oneself.
In other words: If you’ve seen one “fan club”, you’ve seen them all. It’s just that some have a heck of a lot more institutional backing and cultural history!
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/24/2024 at 9:40 PM
Some forty years ago in Texas, I had a couple of colleagues who would play recordings from their church choirs on cassette tapes while they worked at their desk at the office. They would hum along and gently shake their heads to follow the rhythm. They looked like zombies to me. I did not envy them.
M L Clark · 01/24/2024 at 9:45 PM
We humans are an odd lot, aren’t we?
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 10:59 AM
I wonder if any members of any other species find some members, or their own entire species, odd ? lol.
Chris Peterson · 01/25/2024 at 11:05 AM
Snark aside, ostracization of some individuals from the groupings of other social animals is not uncommon. Perhaps because they are found to be “odd”?
M L Clark · 01/25/2024 at 11:06 AM
I’m put in mind of the penguins that sometimes decide they’ve had enough of walking single file through the bitter cold between nest and ocean, and just take off for another horizon instead. To their deaths? Definitely. But marching with the pack no longer seems that great either.
Generational conditioning will only take some of us so far!
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 11:28 AM
It gives me vertigo to try to grasp the depth of all these questions. I keep going back to the old adage, the only thing I know is that I don’t know.
Rick O'Sheikh · 01/25/2024 at 11:30 AM
I think I can safely say that jfnavin knows even less, though. But…
BensNewLogIn · 01/26/2024 at 3:10 PM
This is not a criticism. I think you are being very compassionate and accurate. But what you have described is simply the tribalism that comes with fundamentalist Christian belief. Or maybe the tribal is that comes with all religious belief.
John Nutt · 01/25/2024 at 7:52 PM
Indeed, as I noted in another thread it may well be that this person’s behaviour is the symptom of actual mental illness.
Given that fact I believe if I engage, it’s best to take a gentle and understanding approach.
In my experience when discussing with religious people, it’s best to put my christian hat on and examine the theology from the inside (as it were), and it’s ethical and social implications – instead of attacking it from a “outside” scientific perspective.
That approach is often more productive and fruitful, and can lead to a genuine evolution in the person’s thinking, and “theology”.
Of course as I noted, this is difficult with JFNavin as he’s so bursting to talk about his wonderful relationship with Jesus, he often comes out with unintelligible gibberish.
But still I will respond to the coherent parts, and see where it leads
BensNewLogIn · 01/26/2024 at 3:09 PM
I think you made a very compassionate and accurate response to him. Simultaneously, like so many apologists, what convinces him is not something he notices that does not convince others. All of this conversation about true Christians is the perfect example of it.
jfnavin · 01/28/2024 at 4:57 PM
Them boys are playing real football this afternoon.
jfnavin · 01/29/2024 at 11:06 PM
Can anyone explain why it is important to know the names of those who wrote the content of the NT? I am familiar with debates about who they were, but not the rationale for its significance
jfnavin · 02/14/2024 at 2:33 AM
Clinton lied and turned his back on a million blacks who were slaughtered as they begged him for help. He said he sat at his desk waiting for word about the conditions in Rwanda. Said he regretted not acting sooner. He knew what was happening as revealed thru FOIA requests and he didn’t lift a finger. He is directly responsible for the deaths of countless unarmed, innocent, mothers, fathers and their children who were murdered with shovels and axes, hoes, spears, swords, burned to death, butchered, etc.
He never took any action so, saying he didn’t respond fast enough is another lie he told to try to justify his failure to do anything at all for those poor people. The Rwandan Holocaust.